Who's the biggest loser/coward from last night's game?

[ppaladin123]

When those aspects are already a part of the particular game being played, I think those sort of changes need to be worked out in advance as part of a group decision. It's a pretty big change.

Fair enough. As for me...4e doesn't have any, "run screaming in terror," fear effects so it suits me better in this instance.

 

[ppaladin123]

The entire argument seems based around this concept of "MY CHARACTER IS THIS BRAVE AND AWESOME FIGHTER WHO SHOULD NEVER FAIL AT ANYTHING."

This is a strawman.

Belphanior certainly did not argue this. I did not either. I explained my thoughts on the balance between character concept and system mechanics in a previous post.

Feel free to disagree with us but don't dismiss us as irrational.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

I don't see any cowards, just characters who failed save-or-suck rolls. It's just part for the pre-4e game. (In 4e, it's get-hit-then-suck-then-fail-8-saves-in-a-row.)

As for losers:

i) The biggest loser: the Cleric, for not casting Heroes Feast. "Let's not have immunity to poison and fear at the cost of one 6th level spell. Who really needs that?"

(Also, I was surprised to see you grappling and webbing party members to stop them from running away. Why hasn't the cleric been casting Freedom of Movement on everyone? High level monsters have unbreakable grapple modifiers. What a loser!)

ii) Next biggest loser: the DM, for not knowing how fear auras work. Unless, of course, this monster has different fear aura. In which case I guess I'm the loser.

iii) Last loser: the Wizard, for not casting Mind Blank. "Day long immunity to mind-affecting for an 8th level spell? Who wouldn't cast that?" Answer: "People who'd like some 8th level slots left." Which is why the wizard is number three. On the other hand, high level demons and devils love the mind-affecting attacks.

 

[Mark]

Fair enough. As for me...4e doesn't have any, "run screaming in terror," fear effects so it suits me better in this instance.

You're not alone. Though, personally, I see nothing wrong with effects that cause some loss, whether it be damage, fear, etc. It isn't the end of the world, it can be avoided through planning, and it is something from which a PC can recover.

 

[Belphanior]

You claim you know what a will save is, but you then immidiately state "Wait, no I don't." Barbarians can't be feared because they're raging. Is the straight fighter raging? No? Then why would he be immune to fear?

Barbarians aren't immune to fear, they just get a +2 bonus when they rage. I'm not advocating immunity for fighters, I'm claiming that the entire concept of fear is something that D&D handles poorly.

Will save is "My brain is protected." Fortitude save is "My body is protected." Reflex save is "My reflexes are protected."

No, reflex is another form of "my body is protected". It does it by means of reflexes, but it's not that the reflexes somehow protect themselves.

I'm still not understanding your logic. It seems to be "Fighters should be fearless because I say so."

Then I suggest scrolling back up and reading what I actually said. From the start, I claimed that D&D doesn't handle magical fear effects well. The fighter/caster issue is something I use to prove that claim, but it's not my problem itself.

That's basically what it IS. As I explained earlier, it's not the monster saying "OOGA BOOGA!" It's the magic reaching into your brain, shutting down everything, and then cranking the fear knob to eleven. The entire argument seems based around this concept of "MY CHARACTER IS THIS BRAVE AND AWESOME FIGHTER WHO SHOULD NEVER FAIL AT ANYTHING."

D&D 3.x has no less than three seperate states of feared-ness, and saying that magic fear "cranks it to eleven" is demonstrably wrong. A shaken character takes a relatively mild penalty to checks only. That's not maximum fear and beyond by any means. Your blanket statement is therefore false.

My issue is not that casters have better will saves, it's with people's responses once they have been affected by fear. The concept of bravery is not that magic can't seep into your brain, it's the ability to overcome fear once it's there.

A charm spell doesn't explicitly state what responses the victim must use. I view fear as the same. It shouldn't automatically result in everybody who's afraid fleeing all the time, IMO. There are some RPGs that can handle this kind of emotional state very well, but D&D drops the ball here.

That is all I'm saying. I hope you now understand I don't want fighters to be immune to fear by default.

 

[Treebore]

I don't have problems with there being a "Fear" effect, I only have a problem with it taking PLAYER CHARACTERS out of the combat. So I am much happier with the effect making you less effective in battle because of how "Shaken" or "Rattled" you are. Plus I have no problems with having a difference between PC's and NPC's. NPC's run in fear while PC's are only Shaken, or similar.

Warriors who run from battle only do so when they are young and green enough not to realize that staying at their companions side increases their chances of success and survival. Thats why trained people are far less likely to run, they are committed not only to winning, but their friends next to them, so even though it might be better for them as an individual to run and survive, as a group, and as a person committed to achieving the stated goal, they will not run unless all of his friends/companions decide to run, then its called a "Retreat", which can be well organized, or can be complete chaos.

So I much prefer it when the rules for Fear allow the player to keep his PC where he wishes to, and only suffer some penalties until he gets his fear under complete control again.

Same with Charm, etc... Especially lower level stuff, like Charm Person. They should not turn a PC into a "puppet". It should only allow you to favorably influence someone, not make them attack their friends (unless the PC has been secretly having such thoughts) or to hand over their weapons and other loot without a thought (unless the PC has been played as very generous and giving), only higher level spells, like 5th level and higher should turn PC's into puppets.

Charm Person is horribly easy to abuse. Do you want to know how many Merchants I "Charmed" into becoming a business partner with me and investing lots of gold into it? Do you want to know how rich my third level PC became from doing this? IT was totally destroying the "logic" of the game world, so my DM and I brainstormed a lot of non magical procedures that would keep rich merchants from being scammed in these kinds of ways. Plus we came up with situations where they would get another save, often with good bonus', anytime they were being persuaded to do something very contrary to what would be deemed as their "normal" behaviors. It added a good bit of complexity to things, but it kept "Charm Person" from being abused and destroying merchant houses left and right.

I have no idea how 4E rules on this, I only played 4E for a couple of months going from first to third level, so I would have to look up the rules to remind myself.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I guess I agree with Treebore, in that I do not like fear effects that take a character out of the combat completely. As to who is the bigger coward, I feel that it is an irrelevant thing as the fear effects are an artifact of the save system.
That said the cleric and to a lesser extend the magic user are guilty of some neglect in preparation since they knew the monster was coming and neglected such spells as Heros Feast of Greater Heroism.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't have problems with there being a "Fear" effect, I only have a problem with it taking PLAYER CHARACTERS out of the combat.

I don't. Remember, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and if the PCs start using fear effects to temporarily remove one or more of their enemies from the battle, good on 'em. Both sides in a battle are, after all, in it to win by whatever means they have at their disposal.

So I am much happier with the effect making you less effective in battle because of how "Shaken" or "Rattled" you are. Plus I have no problems with having a difference between PC's and NPC's. NPC's run in fear while PC's are only Shaken, or similar.

Whereas this I have an enormous problem with. PCs should not be special snowflakes! ::grumble::

Lanefan