MrFilthyIke
First Post
diaglo said:
All humor aside, handouts and maps and goodies are a big incentive for me to buy an issue of Dragon.
Why _DON'T_ You Buy Dragon Magazine?
- Thread starter Erik Mona
- Start date
All humor aside, handouts and maps and goodies are a big incentive for me to buy an issue of Dragon.
I am a subscriber. I have subscribed off and on since 1984. I own all but about 70 issues. But none of the players in my group subscribe. I've asked them why. Here were their answers:
Three said: Dragon? What's that?
One said: I don't need a magazine to play.
The fifth said: I'm not the DM. Why do I need to learn about rules I can't use.
Now, I now Dragon is aimed at the general audience and Dungeon at the DM. I wouldn't change that distinction. But three of my players had never heard of Dragon Magazine. The other two have their own reasons for not subscribing.
Don't change what's in the magazine. All that does is switch subscribers -- not add to them. Instead, find a way to increase your subscriber base through better marketing. WotC has no solid mention of Dragon on its website. I have never seen an ad for Dragon outside of Dungeon or Dragon Magazine.
Convince WotC to put a subscription link on their site.
Do the same for ENWorld.
Find a way to give local gaming stores an incentive to offer subscriptions.
Offer current subscribers incentive to "recruit a subscriber".
Dragon Magazine is a niche product.
But it doesn't advertise to that niche.
Three said: Dragon? What's that?
One said: I don't need a magazine to play.
The fifth said: I'm not the DM. Why do I need to learn about rules I can't use.
Now, I now Dragon is aimed at the general audience and Dungeon at the DM. I wouldn't change that distinction. But three of my players had never heard of Dragon Magazine. The other two have their own reasons for not subscribing.
Don't change what's in the magazine. All that does is switch subscribers -- not add to them. Instead, find a way to increase your subscriber base through better marketing. WotC has no solid mention of Dragon on its website. I have never seen an ad for Dragon outside of Dungeon or Dragon Magazine.
Convince WotC to put a subscription link on their site.
Do the same for ENWorld.
Find a way to give local gaming stores an incentive to offer subscriptions.
Offer current subscribers incentive to "recruit a subscriber".
Dragon Magazine is a niche product.
But it doesn't advertise to that niche.
SamSpectre
First Post
First of all, I did not read all four pages of responses so I'm sorry if any of this is redundant.
Secondly, I _am_ a Dragon subscriber (have been for a few years, since 3.0 first debuted) but am considering dropping the subscription.
Why? When 3.0 first came out, the idea of a vastly expandable D&D system was great. I only wanted more. I bought almost every D20 item that was published for the first year, and I can tell you that is a lot. More than a lot, probably too much. A lot of the material I will never, ever use. If I had any hopes of unloading it for a decent price on eBay, I'd be there.
Dragon, at the time, was VERY useful to me because it gave me insight into the new system. I would carry around a few extra copies to games to reference Sage Advice columns, or study SOME of the Prestige Class constructions to get inspiration or insight into creating my own for my home brew campaign. You only need so much of that however before the you don't need anymore. This is where I am now. I have everything I need to run a 3.0/3.5 campaign from now until I'm old and grizzled (at least a few more years).
Now then, what do I think would help Dragon? This might seem a bit radical, but I think Paizo/WotC should abandon the traditional magazine approach. The glossy pages are too expensive to print. I would be happier with a monthly packet of articles and goodies that were binder hole-punched so that I could remove them and set them into separate binders for easy accessibility (rather than needing to carry around a ton of magazine, or photocopy good articles) ala Monstrous Compendiums, HarnQuests, sort of. Instead of creating useless Prestige Classes, monster ecologies, etc., publish useful stuff; meaning: material that was dropped from a publication due to page constraints, world-kingdom-town maps for published campaigns, rules that were dropped for page constraints of core books. A few pages that add depth to Greyhawk (always good), or FR (rarely good), or Eb that could be stored elsewhere, would be nice. The more open-source stuff, the better. I don't know how you'd incorporate advertising into this model, but if you weren't doing full-color background splashes on glossy pages, I imagine your printing costs would plummet.
Another idea would be to publish primarily by .pdf, catered to keywords that the subscriber wants updates on. Such as, I might check off [x] Sage Advice, [x] Greyhawk, [x] Open Source Content, [x] Cartoons; and then only be sent (by e-mail or available on a web server) those files, once a month.
Those are my ideas, today.
Secondly, I _am_ a Dragon subscriber (have been for a few years, since 3.0 first debuted) but am considering dropping the subscription.
Why? When 3.0 first came out, the idea of a vastly expandable D&D system was great. I only wanted more. I bought almost every D20 item that was published for the first year, and I can tell you that is a lot. More than a lot, probably too much. A lot of the material I will never, ever use. If I had any hopes of unloading it for a decent price on eBay, I'd be there.
Dragon, at the time, was VERY useful to me because it gave me insight into the new system. I would carry around a few extra copies to games to reference Sage Advice columns, or study SOME of the Prestige Class constructions to get inspiration or insight into creating my own for my home brew campaign. You only need so much of that however before the you don't need anymore. This is where I am now. I have everything I need to run a 3.0/3.5 campaign from now until I'm old and grizzled (at least a few more years).
Now then, what do I think would help Dragon? This might seem a bit radical, but I think Paizo/WotC should abandon the traditional magazine approach. The glossy pages are too expensive to print. I would be happier with a monthly packet of articles and goodies that were binder hole-punched so that I could remove them and set them into separate binders for easy accessibility (rather than needing to carry around a ton of magazine, or photocopy good articles) ala Monstrous Compendiums, HarnQuests, sort of. Instead of creating useless Prestige Classes, monster ecologies, etc., publish useful stuff; meaning: material that was dropped from a publication due to page constraints, world-kingdom-town maps for published campaigns, rules that were dropped for page constraints of core books. A few pages that add depth to Greyhawk (always good), or FR (rarely good), or Eb that could be stored elsewhere, would be nice. The more open-source stuff, the better. I don't know how you'd incorporate advertising into this model, but if you weren't doing full-color background splashes on glossy pages, I imagine your printing costs would plummet.
Another idea would be to publish primarily by .pdf, catered to keywords that the subscriber wants updates on. Such as, I might check off [x] Sage Advice, [x] Greyhawk, [x] Open Source Content, [x] Cartoons; and then only be sent (by e-mail or available on a web server) those files, once a month.
Those are my ideas, today.
JamesM
First Post
Erik Mona said:
My primary reason for not purchasing Dragon is its presentation. I don't like the way it looks and I don't like the way it reads. As so many others have said, it's bland and esthetically uninteresting. I'd like to see articles written with a lot more "flair" and a layout and graphic design that shows a little "verve" from time to time. So, punch it up all around.
That said, don't make the mistake (IMO) of the early 3E issues, which to my mind seemed to imitate CCG magazines in their presentation. I don't want over the top "Build a Killer Fighter!!!" articles (and I certainly don't want that written across the front cover -- I like the newer covers, FWIW) and I miss the days when not every article was game mechanics-related. There are just way too many feats, spells, and prestige classes in the magazine now.
I also find the tie-ins to WotC products tedious. Most of these articles amount to glorified web enhancements that I'd rather get from the website than in the pages of Dragon. If you're going to do a tie-in, it'd be nice if it'd fill in gaps in the products, namely how to use this new material in a fun way. More of what we already got is just utterly uninteresting to me.
Let me add my voice to the "drop the fiction" vote. I never read the fiction and never have. Its existence doesn't bother me immensely, but a few more pages of gaming material would be preferable.
More "fluff," which is to say non-mechanical inspirational articles that aren't necessarily tied to a specific setting. Even when it is tied to a specific world, it'd be nice if that setting were used primarily as an example rather than as the sole reason for the article. Ed Greenwood's old Realms articles from the days before it became an official setting are a good example of this genre.
If you include more game mechanics, they should not simply reproduce stuff we could get elsewhere. One of the big problems is that, with the d20 STL, there is just an embarrassment of riches when it comes to mechanics. There are lots of things no one has covered yet, so go wild and do weird or exotic stuff no one has done. Likewise, it'd be nice if some of the mechanics were OGC. At present, very little is open content and that limits its utility to writers and designers.
Theme issues are fine occasionally, but don't overdo them. I'd prefer a general mix of content each issue. Columns and regular features are fine and often terrific if you get the right authors. But, to be honest, it's been a while since I found any of your recent columns inspiring or even interesting in an academic way.
I hope this helps.
Waylander the Slayer
Explorer
Very Simple
The market is oversaturated with "splat" and as such there is no need for Dragon Magazine (time is usually better spent working on your character or the campaign and there are already a billion prestige classes, feats, equipment etc.).
The market is oversaturated with "splat" and as such there is no need for Dragon Magazine (time is usually better spent working on your character or the campaign and there are already a billion prestige classes, feats, equipment etc.).
National Acrobat
First Post
I had been...
I recently allowed my subscription to expire after being a subscriber for roughly fifteen years, and after buying it in single issues since the late seventies. My reason is quite simple. My gaming group, of which I am the DM and have been for near twenty years, decided last year to abandon 3rd Edition and to go back to 1E ADnD, and more recently, use Castles and Crusades.
As the magazine is pretty much a 3.5 DnD resource (even though it can be used for 3.0 as well) it really doesn't serve a purpose for me anymore. The things in the magazine aren't really backwards compatible, so it's just not something I felt that I needed anymore.
I recently allowed my subscription to expire after being a subscriber for roughly fifteen years, and after buying it in single issues since the late seventies. My reason is quite simple. My gaming group, of which I am the DM and have been for near twenty years, decided last year to abandon 3rd Edition and to go back to 1E ADnD, and more recently, use Castles and Crusades.
As the magazine is pretty much a 3.5 DnD resource (even though it can be used for 3.0 as well) it really doesn't serve a purpose for me anymore. The things in the magazine aren't really backwards compatible, so it's just not something I felt that I needed anymore.
Belen
Legend
I am a subscriber of both Dragon and Dungeon magazine. While Dungeon now rocks, I have not opened an issue of Dragon since the new rollout. After a very bad experience with Dragon crunch, it has been banned from my game. As someone said earlier, there are already hundreds of published feats, spells and classes. A character is lucky to get 7 feats during their career, so most of the feats published by WOTC never gets used, so why would you ever want to use something from Dragon?
Personally, I feel that Dragon is just a playtest rag for WOTC. They pull the crunch they want and republish it, so it seems that WOTC gets more use out of the magazine than I do.
I think that a lot of DMs have banned the use of Dragon crunch in their games. And, if a player cannot use the material, then there is no reason to buy the magazine. The magazine does not offer anything other than crunch to attract people to buy it. As there is already a metric ton of crunch published by WOTC and third party, then Dragon becomes irrelevant, especially considering the third party material has a better balance and playtest record than Dragon.
If Dragon is to survive, then it needs something to attract people besides crunch. Here are some suggestions:
1.) Instead of PrCs, have articles explaining how already published feats and classes can combine to form archetypes.
2.) Fluff, fluff, and more fluff: For instance, you could do a historical article on Roman Legionaires. Explain how the fighter class can be fitted to different fighter types. Combine fluff with the types of equipment and feats that a Roman would have and suddenly, you will have players that are effective with some personality. You will get more GMs to allow Dragon in game if it shows EXISTING rules and how to work them rather than new, unplaytested, unbalanced rules.
3.) Monsters! Instead of new monsters, have an article about how a monster fights! Give a 5 round set of monster tactics. Yes, it would be geared towards GMs, but players would enjoy it too. That would be VERY useful.
4.) Tactical Studies: Have an article about player tactics. Show them how to use existing rules and crunch in game. Explain how and when to use a fireball. Explain what spells, skills, feats would be useful in certain situations.
5.) Fluffer-size the rules: Have an article that explains the fluff of a skill, spell, feat or class. Give players a sense of how to describe the use of their abilities. Instead of someone saying "I use sleight of hand," have a short skit meant to show a player how to describe sleight of hand in game. "I trip and fall into the wealthy noble, moving lightly to the gold-filled purse by her side."
6.) TEACH! Dragon should be a teaching tool. It should be aimed at teaching players not just the crunch of the game, but the soul of the game. Right now, Dragon has no soul and that is in desperate need. There needs to be something other than crunch that makes people want to read Dragon.
I would read Dragon if more of the above could be expected from the magazine. As of now, I bought a subscription to both magazines, but only Dungeon will be renewed.
Dave
Personally, I feel that Dragon is just a playtest rag for WOTC. They pull the crunch they want and republish it, so it seems that WOTC gets more use out of the magazine than I do.
I think that a lot of DMs have banned the use of Dragon crunch in their games. And, if a player cannot use the material, then there is no reason to buy the magazine. The magazine does not offer anything other than crunch to attract people to buy it. As there is already a metric ton of crunch published by WOTC and third party, then Dragon becomes irrelevant, especially considering the third party material has a better balance and playtest record than Dragon.
If Dragon is to survive, then it needs something to attract people besides crunch. Here are some suggestions:
1.) Instead of PrCs, have articles explaining how already published feats and classes can combine to form archetypes.
2.) Fluff, fluff, and more fluff: For instance, you could do a historical article on Roman Legionaires. Explain how the fighter class can be fitted to different fighter types. Combine fluff with the types of equipment and feats that a Roman would have and suddenly, you will have players that are effective with some personality. You will get more GMs to allow Dragon in game if it shows EXISTING rules and how to work them rather than new, unplaytested, unbalanced rules.
3.) Monsters! Instead of new monsters, have an article about how a monster fights! Give a 5 round set of monster tactics. Yes, it would be geared towards GMs, but players would enjoy it too. That would be VERY useful.
4.) Tactical Studies: Have an article about player tactics. Show them how to use existing rules and crunch in game. Explain how and when to use a fireball. Explain what spells, skills, feats would be useful in certain situations.
5.) Fluffer-size the rules: Have an article that explains the fluff of a skill, spell, feat or class. Give players a sense of how to describe the use of their abilities. Instead of someone saying "I use sleight of hand," have a short skit meant to show a player how to describe sleight of hand in game. "I trip and fall into the wealthy noble, moving lightly to the gold-filled purse by her side."
6.) TEACH! Dragon should be a teaching tool. It should be aimed at teaching players not just the crunch of the game, but the soul of the game. Right now, Dragon has no soul and that is in desperate need. There needs to be something other than crunch that makes people want to read Dragon.
I would read Dragon if more of the above could be expected from the magazine. As of now, I bought a subscription to both magazines, but only Dungeon will be renewed.
Dave
Charles Dunwoody
Man on the Silver Mountain
One thing I thought about after posting my ideas for Dragon was the size of readership. Erik, I don't remember the exact figures but at Gen Con you said the number of subscribers to Dragon is small in comparision to the number of D&D players out there.
Maybe Dragon should try to market to a sophisticated market. By that I mean assuming your readers are skilled and experienced D&D players who want more. More roleplaying discussion, more how to articles, more coverage of favorite settings and how to make a home brew world really spectacular.
I guess I'd like to see Dragon experiment with articles aimed at the experienced reader with a degree in D&D. Instead of creating every article to match the core three rule set or simply add new rules to book x coming out this month.
Dragon Magazine readers are smart and knowledgeable about D&D. Start marketing to that intelligence and education.
I'd like Dragon Magazine to challenge me. Challenge my preconceived and perhaps entrenched notions about what D&D is and how we play the game. While at the same time having the magazine support and expand the core idea of D&D and why we play, which is to envision great stories and create them as a team alongside a great rules system. Get that paradox going and I'll resubscribe next year as well.
Maybe Dragon should try to market to a sophisticated market. By that I mean assuming your readers are skilled and experienced D&D players who want more. More roleplaying discussion, more how to articles, more coverage of favorite settings and how to make a home brew world really spectacular.
I guess I'd like to see Dragon experiment with articles aimed at the experienced reader with a degree in D&D. Instead of creating every article to match the core three rule set or simply add new rules to book x coming out this month.
Dragon Magazine readers are smart and knowledgeable about D&D. Start marketing to that intelligence and education.
I'd like Dragon Magazine to challenge me. Challenge my preconceived and perhaps entrenched notions about what D&D is and how we play the game. While at the same time having the magazine support and expand the core idea of D&D and why we play, which is to envision great stories and create them as a team alongside a great rules system. Get that paradox going and I'll resubscribe next year as well.
Last edited:
IronWolf
blank
Well, I have a subscription to Dragon currently, but I will throw in my thoughts on how it could be better and how you can keep getting my renewals.
I read all 5 pages of posts and I must say I agree with the majority of them. Less crunch and more fluff. And not only more fluff, but good, thought out, in-depth fluff.
As one person said, the average character probably picks up between 7 and 10 feats over the course of a campaign. Why in the world do I need all of these feats? If I *do* need these feats I will pick up an book that has more feats for me to use. I cetainly do not need to see them every month in Dragon.
As another poster said, the magazine seems too simple now. Your target audience is *experienced* D&D players, not newer ones. Focus more content to those of us who are experienced by increasing their depth, etc.
I have the Dragon Archive CD and often times I browse through the older magazines and wish there were more articles of the same caliber in the new issues of Dragon.
I have rambled enough, there are many good ideas in this thread and I would be re-hashing most of what the others have said. Hopefully these ideas will be taken to heart and we will begin to see a shift in the contents of Dragon in the future.
I read all 5 pages of posts and I must say I agree with the majority of them. Less crunch and more fluff. And not only more fluff, but good, thought out, in-depth fluff.
As one person said, the average character probably picks up between 7 and 10 feats over the course of a campaign. Why in the world do I need all of these feats? If I *do* need these feats I will pick up an book that has more feats for me to use. I cetainly do not need to see them every month in Dragon.
As another poster said, the magazine seems too simple now. Your target audience is *experienced* D&D players, not newer ones. Focus more content to those of us who are experienced by increasing their depth, etc.
I have the Dragon Archive CD and often times I browse through the older magazines and wish there were more articles of the same caliber in the new issues of Dragon.
I have rambled enough, there are many good ideas in this thread and I would be re-hashing most of what the others have said. Hopefully these ideas will be taken to heart and we will begin to see a shift in the contents of Dragon in the future.
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