Why adhere to the "core" classes? Why not deconstruct for flexibility?


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*Slight, quick edit, since I sort of ramble in making my point: I'd prefer D&D to have 7-12 distinct classes representing a variety of archetypes well, and each reasonably customizable to produce whatever sub-archetypes may be fitting, within the greater niche of the class.*

I don't think D&D would really be D&D anymore if certain things were taken out of it, including classes. I think the same would happen if D&D's classes were cut down to just a paltry 2-5 overly-generic-and-cookie-cutter classes. Multiclassing is part of the system for a reason, and the fact that it may be necessary for certain character concepts isn't a bad thing, it's a feature. Want a ninja? Multiclass fighter-rogue then, ninjas never got their bad-assed-ness from being lazy bums training only on weekends and only after reaching adulthood, they had to work at it, dangit. In 3E, just use the apprentice-level character rules in the DMG, and wham, you've got a 1st-level PC who's a fighter/rogue on their way to learning the basics of ninjitsu. You're not a real ninja anyway until you're at least 3rd-level or higher, because only inexperienced punks with insignificant amounts of training are still 1st or 2nd level.

As far as I can tell, discern, or comprehend, some of the things that just make D&D what it is are classes, levels, experience points, races, proficiencies/skills, an arcane/divine magic divide, and at-least-vaguely-Vancian magic. Think about it; if you took half of these away, you'd basically be playing any other system altogether, except you'd be rolling a d20 instead of several d6s for most stuff during play. If you ditch classes or levels, you may as well be playing GURPS, HERO, Shadowrun, or something else of the sort, because it's obvious that the kind of system you prefer for representing your fantasy campaigns is not D&D. Not that it's a bad thing, I love Shadowrun myself, but the way that classes, multiclassing, and levels work in D&D are a large part of what makes it D&D, mechanically, in terms of how it represents the fantasy world. It strengthens the archetypes and gives discernable roles for players, and it makes them meaningful, it gives them a place in the campaign world and in turn defines the style of the game. The way that Wizards are defined in D&D makes it different from many other settings; the way that Monks, Rogues, Bards, Clerics, and Druids are defined; these strongly-defined archetypes in D&D are a significant part of what makes a D&D setting still look, feel, and play distinctly like D&D, rather than RIFTS, Shadowrun, GURPS, MERP, WHFRP, or whatever.

Classes and levels provide measuring sticks, baselines, and archetypes for use in play, and they make DMing/GMing less of a chore, generally. They also help in building a character, except when going for some complex concept that really requires a high-level-or-equivalent character to pull off in any game. Classes are more distinctive and defining than merely lumping a pile of feats/abilities/skills/whatever from a classless system and calling them "the common warrior" or whatnot. We wouldn't have the Barbarian, the Monk, the Paladin, or the Bard. Without a well-defined, reasonably-large class system, such concepts would either be horribly crippled compared to more-munchkinized combinations of stats from the master list, or they'd be just plain impossible to duplicate. Without a paladin's strict set of codes and abilities, they'd be rather more powerful; if their less-frequently-useful abilities were taken away and replaced with more potent, more efficient upgrades to their commonly-used abilities, they'd be too munchkin. If a monk could forego all the mystic mumbo jumbo and just put all their points into unarmed accuracy and damage, they'd be the one-hit-wonder, wantonly killing every enemy in sight with their uber-death-punch-of-ultimate-doom, because really, the worth of their versatile and numerous powers would equate to such a death-touch if combined and spent more efficiently from a pool of character points. Instead, as a strictly-defined class, the Monk in play is actually terribly mediocre and sub-par in both combat and out of it, generally (I've played tons of Monks in 3.x D&D, much to my disappointment), but at least has enough versatility and cool little powers to be interesting and kinda fun sometimes, at least, even if it's still a second-rate combatant relegated to helping the Rogue flank, and at the same time a second-rate spy or diplomat, lowly sidekick to the Bard or Rogue in scouting or negotiations.

For such reasons, I don't care at all for the Unearthed Arcana warrior/expert/spellcaster three-class option, it's horribly generic in my mind and doesn't allow any meaningful distinguishing between characters. I don't like D20 Modern's over-simplified, ability-score-based classes either, they just seem wonky to me, and don't really represent any particular concept; what the heck is the real difference between a Smart Hero and a Dedicated Hero, in concept and definition? Nothing, that's what. Warrior A is much like Warrior B, and plays almost exactly the same, and it doesn't matter if Warrior A only ever studied swordsmanship and Warrior B only ever fought in bar-room brawls without any formal training let alone weapon training. Warriors A and B in such overly-simple systems just don't make sense in my suspension of disbelief, when Swordsman Bob (aka Warrior A) is disarmed by Brawler Joe (aka Warrior B), who then takes Bob's sword and proceeds to hack him to pieces with it, despite the fact that Bob knows best how to use and dodge sword attacks, while Joe has never so much as picked up a pointy stick in his entire life, let alone swung a 4-pound double-edged blade 4-1/2 feet in length. And so on and so forth. There needs to be a decent amount of differentiation between characters of the same general sort (not everyone who's a Fighter ought to be a master with any sword, hammer, bow, polearm, or whatnot that they happen to pick up, nor should they all be tough and hard-hitting and devastatingly accurate). When a slow, greatclub-wielding, heavily-armored warrior of great experience faces a quick, nimble fencer of mediocre experience, the club-wielder should not always hit the fencer just because he's more experienced, as his slow attacks and cumbersome armor should be easy enough for even a mere halfway-decent fencer to avoid, while the fencer should have a reasonably easy time hitting the slow, armored brute. Just because the brute's an 8th-level Fighter and the fencer's a 3rd-level Fighter doesn't mean the plodding, clumsy brute should be so deadly-accurate with his heavy club.

Classes and levels, when there aren't just a pitifully small number of them, help to differentiate characters sometimes, and keep munchkins in check when other folks just want to have a little fun in the game without spending hours maximizing their choices of stats and abilities from some master list. It's no fun when the munchkin's powerhouse wipes out every villain before fun Mr. Bard can even draw his blade, just because the munchkin's character is ungodly fast and assassin-like in his efficiency. Or when the munchkin's necromancer kills the Big Bad with one spell in the first round of combat just because he took the obscene amount of time to maximize the character's ability with that spell to the point where it was impossible for any similarly-leveled enemy to resist. Because if the DM/GM goes to the excessive amount of effort needed to compensate for the munchkin and give the other PCs something to do, it'll just mean the other PCs getting slaughtered if the munchkin decides after, *gasp*, actually missing/failing-to-insta-kill with his first attack against the enemy, that maybe he'll just leave that baddie alone and run off to find whatever "trick" the DM "must've" left in the area or back at the town "for the munchkin to inevitably find" and beat the "invincible" enemy with. Etc. Dealing with/compensating for munchkins is too much work and too frustrating for players and DMs/GMs alike. Classless systems are generally much more viable for munchkins to ruin a game with.

I've just noticed a lot of very-obviously overpowered, munchkinny junk in classless systems to believe that my casually-constructed, supposed-to-just-be-fun character in such a game will have any chance of ever doing anything meaningful, other than being an amusing, pathetic, useless sidekick to the godly munchkin character who solves everything through his rules-fu and munchkin-senses. At least with a classless system there's more control, balance, and guidance. I could ban a class that's overpowered; but would I really want to ban a feat/talent/ability/whatever in a classless system when that ability is really only overpowered in certain munchkinny combinations, and otherwise would be very neat and flavorful for other, less grossly-optimized characters? Banning a particular class or feat, altogether, before the campaign, is doable and usually won't upset anyone in particular unless they were really, really itching to play a character of that type. I could always run a separate game later that allows that class though, and is designed to be more hack-and-slash or powergamey or whatever to work well with it, but it isn't so simple or easy, typically, with a classless system and a classless, freeform character design.

If I just ban a character individually that I think is too munchkin to let anyone else have fun, I'll be branded a jerk and a favoritist. I've had folks walk out on my games just because, on the day the game started, I looked over their completed character sheet and said "I'm sorry, but I don't really think this character/feat/whatever is fair in my game" or "Sorry but that kind of character doesn't fit my campaign setting/campaign region/whatever" or "How did you come up with these stats? I don't think that's really fair to the other players, I already told them weeks ago what rolling methods/point-buy-totals/whatever to use" or anything else vaguely of that nature.

And now I've made the post too long since I descended into ranting. Ah well. The first paragraph or two probably get my point across more succinctly and rationally.... Needless to say, I am strongly in favor of D&D's future incarnations remaining distinctly D&D-ish and not just pitiful, marginally-different reflections of other roleplaying systems that are less distinct and traditional.
 
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mmadsen said:
A question: Does everyone agree that the current Fighter class design works well? (At least in concept.)

The fighter is a very simplistic archetype. He/she swings a club or pointy stick at something, or throws a blunt or pointy object at something, and does it well, and maybe he/she moves around a lot while doing so, or maybe he/she plods along in a metal suit instead while doing so. A mage, rogue, bard, or priest, however, does all kinds of things, and in many different ways, and is not so easy an archetype to cram into a basic, generic design.

The fighter works decently in concept, but isn't really flexible enough, however, when combined with the capacity to multiclass into rogue, cleric, ranger, barbarian, or whatever, it does become flexible enough through that combination. Personally I'd prefer the fighter to have more of a choice in his/her proficiencies, class skills, ratio of skill points to hit points, ratio of base attack bonus to actual attack rate and hitting power, the degree to which they can specialize in a weapon or fighting style, etc. The fighter's decent enough though as-is, considering that they could always multiclass to reasonably fit any given concept of a guy who more or less fights stuff for a living.

I'd like 4E to have something like a Fighter (with ability paths/choices for barbarian, martial artist, swashbuckler, weapon specialist, or other archetypes), a Mage (with ability paths/choices for sorcerer or various specialist archetypes), a Cleric (with ability paths/choices for druidic, shamanic, philosophic, etc. archetypes), a Rogue (with class abilities versatile enough to progress along bardic, martial artist, monkish, arcane, divine, psionic, or other paths), an Expert (low combat ability, high skills, many special abilities, able to dabble in combat and mystic stuff if desired), a Mentalist, a Battlemage, a Mindblade, and a Champion (able to represent rangers, paladins, blackguards, and more). Each reasonably versatile in their choice of class abilities and feats, but still each possessing a particular set of qualities, or a particular set of ability/feat choices, that defines them as different from the rest. I.E. Champions getting a few resistances/immunities automatically and universally having a bond to either a mount or a weapon or something, Mindblades having a focus on generating psychic-energy weapons, Mentalists having discernable differences in the focus of their powers compared to a Mage's or Cleric's spells (i.e. psionics should mostly just do clairsentient, psychokinetic, and telepathic sort of stuff, with a few bodily-function-controlling and astral-dimension-accessing powers thrown in), etc.
 

Keep the classes.

If more people realized that its pretty easy to do some twinking to classes to make them suit your character idea we would not need 1001 prestige classes or a lot of multiclassing.

UA have plenty of good examples of how to do this. Use them and common sense as a guideline and you will be fine.

IMO its much better to think over the concept of your character and then find the class that fits most of the needs and then suggest the changes you would like to make.

It does take a more than casual knowledge of the system, at least from the DM, who idealy could and should help players get the character close to what they want.
 

When will some players get it in their thick skull that point-based systems are no more imbalanced then class based ones? They are just balanced differently.

In PB systems every point you spent on something is a point not spent somewhere else. One of your character is combat monster, not a problem he'll suck at everything else. If your games include only combat he'll dominate but if your game is court intrigue he'll be useless.
Solution : Games that include different elements.

As for Player's Option : Any argument against PB system based on it is invalid because the classes were not equal. Clerics had 120 points while the warrior had about 15. A bad PB system is like a bad class system, it sucks.

If D&D 4E has generic classes with Talents and Feats I'll probably buy it otherwise they ain't getting a buck from me. Too damn restrictive.
 

Joshua Dyal said:
Am I the only one who did not read deconstructing the classes as no class point buy? I assumed it referred to better guidelines from WotC on class tweaking and design.
Well, you're not the only one. There are two of us.
 

Driddle said:
In future incarnations of the D&D game design, which would you prefer?:

1. the PC class structure be maintained, which sometimes requires extensive multiclassing to reach the player's concept for his character ("I like the ranger, except I want more focus on animal magic...")

2. the current classes be deconstructed to so players can pick specific components of the class (skills, feats, certain abilities) within preset bounds -- ex. choose between combat feats every other level or backstabbing bonuses every other level; choose between animal companion or familiar; choose which of your three saves will be higher than the other two; choose six class skills; etc.

#1.5

First off, this is D&D. If I wanted scratch-built, I'd use GURPS (no, actually, I'd use heroes, but I thought I'd give the pat answer first.)

Second, flexibility is not the end-all, be-all. It can make the game more difficult to manage and balance and can make chargen more difficult. I think the D&D classes could use some further level of customizability (see Grim Tales for an example), but breaking everything down to its components would be, IMNSHO, throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Your ranger is a good example. Already, I don't need to do extensive multiclassing to tweak my ranger. Wildscape has an excellent means of customizing rangers simply by extending their "combat" style options and allowing you to trade in spellcasting for futher progression in your style. Now, if classes would inherently allow these sorts of choices, we can have great customization without the attendant hassle of component-built systems.
 
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We may argue about the flavor or how "powerful" we want such characters to become, but for the most part (I think), we all want to play characters who start as nobodies and become powerful as they embrace their destiny. And that's what D&D gives us

I disagree because I don't find anything heroic about 4 uber characters killing a dragon that's weaker then they are together. Beating a weaker foe is not heroic.

For such reasons, I don't care at all for the Unearthed Arcana warrior/expert/spellcaster three-class option, it's horribly generic in my mind and doesn't allow any meaningful distinguishing between characters. I don't like D20 Modern's over-simplified, ability-score-based classes either

The distinction comes from the player who can build a character that can do what he wants it to do based on the story he made for the character. D&D archetypes are too narrow to allow for everyone to make the characters exactly like they want.

Warriors A and B in such overly-simple systems just don't make sense in my suspension of disbelief, when Swordsman Bob (aka Warrior A) is disarmed by Brawler Joe (aka Warrior B), who then takes Bob's sword and proceeds to hack him to pieces with it, despite the fact that Bob knows best how to use and dodge sword attacks, while Joe has never so much as picked up a pointy stick in his entire life, let alone swung a 4-pound double-edged blade 4-1/2 feet in length.

That applies to D&D fighters too you know. They are good with all weapons because of the lack of weapons skills in D&D. That argument is invalid since it applies to D&D.

It's no fun when the munchkin's powerhouse wipes out every villain before fun Mr. Bard can even draw his blade, just because the munchkin's character is ungodly fast and assassin-like in his efficiency.

That also applies to D&D where munchkins take templates, feats and classes combinations to min/max their characters. If your game is all combat then the combat monsters will dominate just like a social monster would dominate a political intrigue game. A D&D fighter could dominate a combat heavy session and be useless in a political intrigue session.
Once again that's an invalid argument because it applies to all RPG systems.

I've just noticed a lot of very-obviously overpowered, munchkinny junk in classless systems to believe that my casually-constructed, supposed-to-just-be-fun character in such a game will have any chance of ever doing anything meaningful, other than being an amusing, pathetic, useless sidekick to the godly munchkin character who solves everything through his rules-fu and munchkin-senses.

PB system are no more munchkinny then class based ones, don't believe me go to the D&D forums and look at the number of posts in the Min/Max section. There's a boatload of people there trying to create the most uber character they can. It's a RPG trend, not a PB system specific one. Again not a valid argument against PB systems.
 
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Driddle said:
In future incarnations of the D&D game design, which would you prefer?:

1. the PC class structure be maintained, which sometimes requires extensive multiclassing to reach the player's concept for his character ("I like the ranger, except I want more focus on animal magic...")

2. the current classes be deconstructed to so players can pick specific components of the class (skills, feats, certain abilities) within preset bounds -- ex. choose between combat feats every other level or backstabbing bonuses every other level; choose between animal companion or familiar; choose which of your three saves will be higher than the other two; choose six class skills; etc.

Or in other words, why load up on tons of supplement and variant products to get a PC's aspects *just right* when you could build the character to spec from the git-go?
I've said this in other forums before. The core system is built for the newbie. TOo flexible and it can scare off people. Heck, I show my friends what we use to play and it takes them a bit just with the core stuff. I'm all for a point based system for advanced games and one for magic (such as the Elements of Magic) but I would hate if WOTC published this stuff because it would further divide an already fragile community (3.0 3.5 ... think 3.75). I prefer these third party's to release these variant systems so that WOTC can concentrate on making core material easy enough for newbies to join and keep the game going.
 

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