Why arbitrary monster abilities are a bad idea.

robertliguori said:
Houserules will not save you now; if your creatures have motivations, PCs can exploit them.

Fine by me, I welcome a bit of player initiative. In general I'm happy for players to alter my setting/world. Of course I need to use my judgement as GM, not just stick to what the monster entry says - why haven't Spectres already level-drained everyone and taken over the world? Clearly they're restricted in some way, perhaps they can only manifest at certain locales. But charming a Chimera or Nightmare and getting it as a flying mount is fine. Getting a teleport-at-will demon to work for you? Risky, but fine in principle.
 

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One of the roles that any monster should be able to fill without breaking the game is the role of "Ally."

It's reasonable, justifiable, and normal to suggest that the PC's can and will use the powers of various monsters to their own advantage, either as a member of the party, as a negotiated (if temporary) ally, or as a creature that shares the same goals.

4e worries me on this angle too, because it seems that they only care about one role for every monster: adversary. This leaves two important roles left unconsidered: Anybody and Ally.

After skimming Worlds & Monsters, I see that they are paying some attention to Anybody, which is good. They should be.

I still see no evidence for them paying any attention to monsters as allies, though.

Which does bother me, as it does the OP. Different rules for monsters are fine, if they are compatible with PC rules (even if they're different). If I can't go back behind the monster and see how it could be used with a party as a friend, it's still not very useful to me as a DM.
 

robertliguori said:
If a PC wants to stop and research the Ritual of Endless Night that the evil villain was attempting to perform, what happens then? .

Umm, how about rolling to see if the PC succeeds? :\ Generally speaking, if a PC-ish villain can do it, the PC can do it. So part or all of the world is cast into endless night. A bunch of heroic (N)PCs then quest to break the enchantment. Sounds like a fun game.

Edit: I once had a PC use an evil artifact to unleash a horde of spectres on a city. Didn't cause me any problems; admittedly this was before I'd run much 3e and I was still in a 1e 'anything goes' mindset. Which is a mindset I like.
 
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As many others have said, I am willing to accept the responsiblity for monster abilities if it comes with the consequence that I may have to improvise if they come into play in a way I did not originally consider. This is a downfall of a more open system, but I would simply not use any opponent generation system that limited my design to the cramped space of those abilities that could not be abused in a player's hands. I do agree that this means that some PC character types (those that expect to be able to regularly exert long term control over all of an opponent's abilities) will have to carefully examined and possibly discouraged. Frankly, I think the mindbender/enchanter concept has enough going for it that the loss of "I can dominate any monster with no gameworld restrictions" powers won't cripple it.
 
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Counterspin said:
Yes, because in 3e they let you have dominate at will just like a vampire! All you had to do was study hard! NPCs have always had powers that PCs could never get. No change except in who is handing out the powers the PCs will never have.

Well, that's still lame if the NPC in question is PC-esque and actually got it by studying hard himself, especially if the PCs can easily be superior to that NPC and still cannot have that ability. 2nd edition's Drizzt do'Urden and his unique ability to kill instantly with a slash from both swords, for instance, is aggravating to some players, because it's quite possible for a PC to be a drow ranger of a level greater than Drizzt's, but never for them to attain that ability. Likewise, some guidelines established by PCs can be seen as setting down truths about the world - if human stats range from 3 to 18 at 1st level and then rise from there, a level 6 human with a Charisma of 27 goes against the way the rules say humans are. (Though in 4e, it can be argued that only the Charisma of 27 - not attainable within 30 levels assuming a stat boost every 4th level, even granting a starting stat of 18(*) - goes against these rules: if she's at the appropriate challenge level for a level 6 monster, her being listed as level 6 is fine.)

The other sort of powers are monster powers that ruin the game as soon as they're used outside the context of a five-round encounter, or monster powers that mess up the game if they're on the PCs' side of the table. Dominate at will may be a power like that, or may not, but stuff like Shambling Mounds' infinite Constitution gain from eating lightning has problems when this is put to "full use" by PCs or NPCs. These don't have to be powers PCs themselves can ever get, and in many cases it only makes sense if they aren't. However, they can still be worked such that they are not game-wrecking once used outside the context of a direct adversary.

Essentially, the Shambling Mound's lightning-eating power is fair in the context of a 5-round encounter. It will either have no effect at all beyond "immune to lightning" if the PCs know this and square off against it party-on-one, or at worst it will start off normal and have a supporter who keeps hitting it with lightning every round to buff it up. However, once taken outside of that context - say, by a Druid PC who's convinced one to follow it using Speak With Plants or a druid villain with one who wants to kill the party and is allowed to use the resources actually at his disposal, you start getting into nonsense like Shambling Mounds who have been hit with lightning attacks constantly for 30 minutes before being sent into battle, because there's no limits written into that ability to account for that.

(*) This is an assumption. Its actual truth or lack thereof doesn't matter - feel free to replace it with any stat value that is not possible for a PC member of that race to have.
 
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I agree with Mr. McCrae in this instance. They aren't arbitrary at all. They're abilities specifically chosen by a developer. They're more 'abilities without pre-requisites' than anything else.

And I like that.
 

Imban said:
Well, that's still lame if the NPC in question is PC-esque and actually got it by studying hard himself, especially if the PCs can easily be superior to that NPC and still cannot have that ability. 2nd edition's Drizzt do'Urden and his unique ability to kill instantly with a slash from both swords, for instance, is aggravating to some players, because it's quite possible for a PC to be a drow ranger of a level greater than Drizzt's, but never for them to attain that ability.

I certainly agree with that; but in the Driz'zt case it's the usual problem of statting literary characters and making them uber-kewl by going ridiculously overboard on the stats. At the game table it comes over as Mary Sue-ism. Driz'zt the game NPC doesn't need insta-kill powers, he's just a high level Ranger with good stats; Gray Mouser doesn't need levels in Fighter Thief and Wizard - stat him as a high level Thief with good stats. Sure he's the finest - most skilled - swordsman around, but heck he's only 5' tall, skill ain't everything! :)
 

I agree with Kamikaze Midget... the biggest issue I'm getting from this thread is that 4e isn't taking into account when a Monster might be used as an Ally.

I'm fine with building NPCs or Monsters differently to be quicker and better referenced for the DM.

I'm not fine with giving NPCs or Monsters world-shaping abilities that would cause campaign issues outside of combat. Not necessarily because I don't want my PC-who-decides-to-play-said-creature to cause problems... but because I don't want to have to come up with metagame reasons "Why X hasn't happened yet if this creature can do Y?"


I like to have my world make sense, you know? And looking strictly at NPCs and Monsters stats as "How it acts as an adversary in combat" can have blind spots when it comes to those things.


Also, even though WotC might not fumble too badly and has a keen eye on making monster abilities make sense, this leaves the door open for third party makers to really screw with the system.

Sure, you can avoid the "crap 3rd party resources", but a system that has it's own checks and balances can prevent a lot of crap being made by accident in the first place. It also helps DMs make up their own stuff too.


Hopefully the DMG has some info on this kind of thing too.
 

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