Why are paladins so dumb?

[Artoomis]

Since you asked:

Last night we fought some sort of winged tentacled beastie (very nasty - over 200 hit points, fire resistance, DR 10/1, etc.), during which Gibley charge it once for about 41 points, got grappled by it and took around 60 points damage, and then broke free and smited the heck out of it for about 81 points - just before, as it turns out, it was going to blast us with a Call Lightning for 9d10!.

Not bad for a little guy, eh?

Shortly after that I "turned" and destroyed a few shadows (no pure clerics in out party, I have the best "turn.")

Not bad.

Now it's your turn for advice to me. What feat to I take at 12th level?

Likely choices are:

Extra Turning

(edit: fixed names)

Divine Might ( the one that give extra damage = cha mod for cha bonus number of rounds)

Empower Turning or Heghten Turning(?) - Turn as if you were two levels higher.

 

[Artoomis]

Artoomis: Thanks for all that info! Actually, it was you who inspired me to make a halfling paladin in the first place.

Wow. I'm honored.

 

[The Souljourner]

The feats you're thinking of are Divine Might (charisma bonus to damage for charisma bonus rounds - a paladin feat if I ever saw one) and Empower or Heighten Turning. Empower gives you a -2 to your turning check and adds 2d6 damage. Heighten is basically like power attack, except you add to your turning check and subtract from turning damage, up to a number equal to your effective turning level (i.e. level -2 for paladins). The two turning feats require Extra Turning as a prerequisite.

Personally I'm not a big turning fan. We rarely go up aganist powerful undead, and non-powerful undead are easy enough to dispatch without using feats to improve your turning. Twere it me, I'd go for Divine Might. 5 rounds of +5 damage would be awesome!

-The Souljourner

[edit] Is it just me, or is a halfling paladin getting "Tall in the Saddle" just too amusing?

 

[Jeremy]

Given the lack of feats available to paladins, I'd have to say for turning go get a greater holy symbol (grants the heighten turning feat I believe), or an amulet of undead turning (turn as if 4 levels higher), or possible the rod from Defenders of the Faith that works in a similar fashion. A sacred armor or shield could also help. Given that there are so many pieces of equipment that aid turning, I'd use your feats elsewhere.

Divine Might is great as both to hit, damage, and duration are based off of charisma. If you've got high charisma, this is for you. It's prerequisite (besides the ability to turn undead) is power attack which is great because you can power attack an amount equal to the bonus to hit that divine might gives you without really feeling a loss.

Extra turning I'd leave alone, boost your charisma if you want to be able to turn more often.

Extra smiting though... THAT I love. Unless you can get one of those ioun stones that hold 6 spells for ya. Then you can just put the first level paladin spell from Relics and Rituals in there six times. The spell is smite and works like the ability. Recharge the stone on off days.

I wub paladins.

 

[Caliban]

Has anyone else noticed that the average intelligence of D&D Paladins is like 8? Strength for attacking, Con for hitpoints, Dex for AC (granted you really only need 12, since every paladin worth his salt has platemail), Wisdom for casting spells, and Charisma for saving throws, turning, and lay on hands. There's just no room left for a decent intelligence score. The last 3 paladins I've seen (one of which I played) had intelligence 6, 7, and 9. Boy, that last one sure was sharp. Seriously though... the requirement that a paladin have 5 good stats is really rough.

-The Souljourner

Paladins don't need to concern themselves with complex wordly issues, their deity does their thinking for them.

They are the lords avenging champion, not the lords debating team.

The strict code of honor laid out by the deity is mainly to prevent the paladin from accidentally whacking the wrong unbelievers.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

DMG paladin

Str 14, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 15
Int 10 is average; the paladin isn't dumb. He's slow and clumsy though.

Boost Wis at level 4, then boost Cha at levels 8, 12, 16, and 20.

Not a real powerhouse in combat with 25 point buy.

 

[Artoomis]

DMG paladin

Str 14, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 15
Int 10 is average; the paladin isn't dumb. He's slow and clumsy though.

Boost Wis at level 4, then boost Cha at levels 8, 12, 16, and 20.

Not a real powerhouse in combat with 25 point buy.

No one's a real powerhouse with a 25-point buy.

 

[reapersaurus]

Re: Re: Why are paladins so dumb?

Paladins don't need to concern themselves with complex wordly issues, their deity does their thinking for them.

They are the lords avenging champion, not the lords debating team.

The strict code of honor laid out by the deity is mainly to prevent the paladin from accidentally whacking the wrong unbelievers.

God, that's funny stuff.

The scary thing is, when you look at the Phylactery of Faithfullness (DMG, page 224), Caliban's not too far off the mark. LOL

Ya, I agree with the original post:
it really is hard to make a combat-effective paladin with low point-buy.
I have long maintained that INT is the ONLY 'dump-stat' a paladin has.
Unfortunately, that and the fact that Wizards decided to give the Paladin 2 whopping skill points makes not only feats, but skill points an incredibly limiting factor with paladins, as well.

Since when is DEX considered unimportant for paladins?
That is perpetuating the stereotype that they are walking, preaching, tin cans.
Are paladins easier to hit than other classes?
Are they incapable of hitting a foe with a ranged weapon by class?

Ridley's Cohort (and SoulJourner)
I think that 3E paladins are hopelessly outclassed by fighter/clerics, as well.
Single-classed Paladins just don't really do anything that well!

Think about it:
They can't heal or turn as well as a cleric, they don't get the feats a fighter does, they have like no skills, MAYBE they have better saves than most.
All their advantages are sheer roleplaying advantages.

In other words:
they're really only good for roleplaying.

There's only one thing that comes to mind when you say to me "Paladin" : Smiting Evil.
And with the Relics & Rituals cleric spell of Smite, they can do it better than a Paladin can.

Holy Liberators get to Holy Sword faster than a Paladin.

Quick character concept: Fighter/Holy Liberator who takes a Celestial Mountain Goat as a companion with which to double-team with their Bashing attacks ; the goat with its horns, the HL with a Shield.
Anyone got stats on a mountain goat?

edit: Artoomis - you could make a darn capable fighter or barbarian with 25 point buy.
And I'm surprised you're even hesitating at all to take Divine Might.
With his 20 CHA, it's starting to actually be effective.
And give him Armor of Command.
Good work on the Rider PrC, BTW.
Keep the Paladin PrC's coming!

 

[Artoomis]

Good advice from several of you. I'm thinking:

1. Take Divine Might at 12th level. (I also considered Craft Wondrous Item or Craft Arms and Armor, believe it or not. Low caster level pretty well decided that one)

2. Add the "Command" property fom DotF to his shield. This adds a competence bonus of 4 to Charisma. (12,000 g.p.). A good one - stacks with the Cloak of Charisma.

3. Get one of:

Rod of Authority (Bearer may cast command up to 3/day, and channels energy at four levels higher than normal.) 20,576 gp - too expensive.

Greater Holy Symbol (Grants the bearer the Empower Turning feat, usable at will.) 5,040 gp. I don't like the trade off of how the feat works.

Amulet of Undead Turning (Turn undead as if you were 4 levels higher) 11,000 g.p. This is the one.

I need more cash, but I can probably get that ( a loan from another well-off pC, if nothing else). Our current mission is to find abducted priests from 4 or 5 different temples (they were in a group traveling together), including one from his own religion. He can probably simply buy the amulet. I'm not sure I can get enough cash for both the Command boost to the shield AND the Amulet, but I'll have to see what I can do. In any case, we don't have the time to wait for the armor right now. This looks like the way to go - eventually he'll turn at 13th level (14th after he makes 12th level) AND with a 24 Cha - wow! +7 to hit for Smite and +7 damage for Divine Might. now we're talking!!

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Paladins are so dumb because there aren't any good reasons to have a high intellegence in the efficiency department.

I really think that unless your spells, skills, or class abilities are based on Intellegence, it will always be a dump stat from a min/maxing perspective.

Same goes with all of the other classes and attributes.

Let's look at all of the classes and their respective dump stats:

Barbarian: Int and Chr
Bard: Don't know (Bard is a "dump class" IMHO)
Cleric: Int and Dex
Druid: Str and Dex (Irrelevent with Wild Shape)
Fighter: Int and Chr
Monk: Int and Chr
Paladin: Int and Dex
Ranger: Int and Chr
Rogue: Depends
Sorcerer: Everything but Chr
Wizard: Everything but Int

Using the above assumption, IMO every class except for Wizards can use Int as a dump stat.

IMX, every character (except Wizards) I see played tends to use Intellegence as a dump statistic.

All of the adventurers in my campaign and others I've played in are idiots.

I've always wanted to play a Barbarian with scores like this:

Charisma (15)
Intellegence (14)
Wisdom (13)
Dexterity (12)
Constitution (10)
Strength (8)

However, this character would suck.

Fun, but sucky, nonetheless...

(Until I get Leadership. But then my lacky with the high strength will kill everything for me. AHAHAHA!!!)

Just to prove my point, I once played a Wizard with a 5 Int. Needless to say, I was pretty ineffective.

I think this has more to do with the focus in the game towards combat prowess more than anything else.

Intellegence is not a dump stat if you are constantly solving puzzles, outwitting people and using skills.

I have never seen this:

Player #1: "Damn it! My fighter just isn't smart enough...his 18 Str is utterly worthless..."

Player #2: "Yeah, maybe you could talk the DM into letting you change that. Then your character could get into medical school!"

Player #1: "Nifty!!!"

Two other situations:

#1 "Sorry, Bob the Barbarian, you can't lift the gate because you failed your Str check."

"But I can lift that in real life!!"

#2 "Sorry, Bob the Barbarian, you can't figure out that puzzle because you failed your Int check."

"But I figured out the puzzle right here!"

I think people would tend to agree that the DM is right in situation #1, but not in situation #2.

Why? No clue...

However, until DMs enforce that it sucks to have a low intellegence, then all characters, not just paladins, will put their "dump stat" in intellegence.