Why are sci-fi scenarios so thin on the ground?

[Cadence]

There is no standard magic system in fantasy. Most writers don't explain how magic works, it just does.

LeGuin and Rothfuss's works, where they focus on needing to know the names of things, and be able to connect with those names in the right way, both make me feel like there's something behind it. Instead of it just works because it's magic. And they both make me wonder how to translate that to a D&D class.

 

[Cadence]

Vance created about half the concepts used in D&D/RPGs. And his magic system makes tremendous sense if you actually read the books.

Is the summoner in Pathfinder the closest the D&D family comes to a caster that uses a sandestin?

Have you read the Martin & Dozois edited "Songs of the Dying Earth: Stories in Honor of Jack Vance". I thought some of those were outstanding too in order to get more of a Dying Earth fix.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

LeGuin and Rothfuss's works, where they focus on needing to know the names of things, and be able to connect with those names in the right way, both make me feel like there's something behind it. Instead of it just works because it's magic. And they both make me wonder how to translate that to a D&D class.

We know Naming in both has power, and that actually goes back to some RW belief systems.

But mechanically, we know nothing, For all we know, the knowledge of names may be finite. You might only be able to utter so many truenames in a day, a week, a month. We don’t know the limitations- if any- at all.

It’s a system, yes, but one sealed in a black box.

At least in the Thieves’ World stories, we know some concrete things. An Adepts' vows- especially their taboo/secret- is the source of their power, functioning similarly to a Truename. If a man or another Adept learns their secret, they don’t just gain power over that ”unmasked” Adept, the revealed Adept loses their powers.

 

[Bohandas]

I mean magic in most works operates approximately along the lines of the magic in The Evil Dead. You say the incantation, and maybe make a gesture, and something happens. No prior preparation needed. And generally this is all there is to it, with minor variations, such as some prop or ritual needed at the time of casting or the caster having to be of a particular bloodline.

 

[amethal]

Its magic system is pure Vance. Complete standard.

I wouldn't describe it as pure Vance.

Jack Vance had several different magic systems in the Dying Earth stories. And Turjan of Miir, by all accounts a powerful wizard, could only carry 4 spells at a time.

I'm not sure what this has to do with sci-fi scenarios.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I mean magic in most works operates approximately along the lines of the magic in The Evil Dead. You say the incantation, and maybe make a gesture, and something happens. No prior preparation needed. And generally this is all there is to it, with minor variations, such as some prop or ritual needed at the time of casting or the caster having to be of a particular bloodline.

If you have to READ the spell to cast it, that’s a limitation, one casters in most games don’t have. It’s also unusual to have that limitation in mythology.

If you can ALSO cast a spell by reciting it from memory, that’s functionally Vancian because- lets be honest- most people have a finite ability to memorize things.

Unlike a lot of “traditional” RW magic systems, the only components needed- as far as we can see on screen- are verbal. No special gestures, no special materials like eye of newt, no rituals required. That’s VERY unusual.

In addition, we know that mis-recitation of magical words of certain kinds have repercussions. It is unclear whether ”Klaatu Barada Nicto” to safely gather the Necronomicon is actually a spell or a keyword to a previously cast magical ward or sigil, but most RPG magic systems don’t have much in the way of “fumble” penalties. Miscast magic usually just fizzles.

 

[John Dallman]

The places where it appears can be counted on one hand: Dying Earth, Dungeons and Dragons and Discworld, and it's questionable whether Discworld should count, since Vancian magic was pretty much handwaved away after the second book.

And Discworld was parodying D&D at that point.

 

[Bluenose]

And Turjan of Miir, by all accounts a powerful wizard, could only carry 4 spells at a time.

I think it was 5th level where a 1st edition AD&D Magic-User surpassed the number of spells that the greatest wizards of the Dying Earth could memorise. Though I suppose if people really want D&D magic to be straight out of Vance ('s Dying Earth is assumed), then they'll be happy to have the much lower spell count be standard for casters in future editions.

 

[wingsandsword]

I think it was 5th level where a 1st edition AD&D Magic-User surpassed the number of spells that the greatest wizards of the Dying Earth could memorise. Though I suppose if people really want D&D magic to be straight out of Vance ('s Dying Earth is assumed), then they'll be happy to have the much lower spell count be standard for casters in future editions.

Well, it IS an old chestnut to point out that Gandalf the Grey would be about a 5th level Wizard in D&D terms, that nothing he does in the books is greater than a 3rd level spell (there was an old article in Dragon from the 80's I think about this).

So, saying Wizards in Dying Earth would be between 1st to 4th level in D&D terms would fit well with super-powerful Gandalf being 5th level as a D&D character.

 

[Cadence]

So, saying Wizards in Dying Earth would be between 1st to 4th level in D&D terms [...]

Maybe if Prismatic Spray was a 2nd level spell...