Why are these evil?!?

[Magius del Cotto]

OK, now for my input on the subject:
Death Knell, as well as, by extension, most other Necromantic spells, is evil because it's messing with the souls of the targets, in this case draining part of it off and using it for energy. I think that most people would agree that this would be an evil act, so why shouldn't the spell that does that be considered evil?
Now, assassins are a different barrel. Yes, it's possible to have a Neutral or possibly even a Good assassin, but in order for someone to be dedicated enough to the art of assassination to warrant a PrC, they have to have no regard for life, human or otherwise, and thus be evil. Remember, PrCs don't just represent people that are good at what they do, they represent the pinnacle of acheivement for that job.
Just my 2.3454321 cents on the matter.

 

[El Seso]

I must ask that you forgive my ignorance. Although I've been playing D&D for many, many years, it's only been within the last year that I began playing 3E. I wasn't aware that the Assasin was now a PrC, and that she actually has spells now. Weird.

 

[I'm A Banana]

This sounds SO like a troll.

But I'll toss it bait.

The reasoning from the Core Rules probably stands as follows:

DEATH KNELL: Kiling is not a Good act. It may, at best, be a nessecary evil to preserve the greater good. The spell kills someone and provides you enjoyment -- it makes you relish the thought of another's demise. And that is EVIL. Alterately, spells with the [evil] descriptor don't have to be acts of evil, but they are powered by the very *energies* of wickedess. You tap the spirits of rapists, child moletsors, spirits of maelfesece, and various naughty people all for your own p ersonal gain.

ASSASSIN: There is one thing that really makes assassins evil: The killing to join the organization. Again, it is a matter of enjoying and profiting from the death of others, of actively wanting to kill for your own good. You kill, and you get a benefit from it, so it makes you enjoy and relish the thought of killing -- and thus, is EVIL. You kill simply to take a prestige class. It's the motive behind it. You're not killing to further the cause of Good, or to defend the lives of innocents, you're killing for your own benefit. Thus, EVIL.

A LOT of the above is flavor considerations. Death Knell is kind of hard to seperate from the absolute evil of the game world, but if you play without alignments, it's no more evil than something like Vampiric Touch, just probably a hell of a lot more frowned on (because you're taking a helpless foe and feeding on him). Assassination is more easy to do (and I do it myself in my campaigs): just consider the PrC a name for a collection of skills. By taking the "assassin" PrC, and getting rid of the flavor prereq, you're just honing killing skills, and not nessecarily benefiting from the death of others.

There. Now I've justified how the alignment system still works, if you're willing to think about it.

Edit: And the spells argument for the Assassin doesn't entirely work. They cast spells like Wizards...so they don't have to ever cast an evil spell, if they don't want to.

 

[Staffan]

OK, now for my input on the subject:
Death Knell, as well as, by extension, most other Necromantic spells, is evil because it's messing with the souls of the targets, in this case draining part of it off and using it for energy. I think that most people would agree that this would be an evil act, so why shouldn't the spell that does that be considered evil?

Also note that Death Knell is a spell with the [Death] descriptor, and thus entails "permanently" killing the target - a mere Raise Dead doesn't work, you need stronger stuff like Resurrection. Another factor is that you can only cast the spell on already dying victims - it's not a means toward the possibly good (or at least non-evil) end of stopping a bad guy, it's about draining the life out of someone for your own power gain.

 

[Bob Aberton]

Death Knell & the Assassin, IMHO, are evil for basically the same reason.

Death Knell is evil because it involves killing a creature for personal power . Remember, if you hadn't used Death Knell, the creature might have recovered. But now it's dead, and you profited from its death.

Assassin is evil, not because it draws on cosmologically evil forces, IMHO, but because being an assassin involves killing for personal gain.

Do you think someone who can look at people and think of them only as targets can really be a Good, or even Neutral person?

An assassin has ceased to view his/her targets as people. They are above compassion or mercy.

In a way, the assassin is more reprehensible than the NE wizard who kills because he is crazy, or because he wanted revenge.

The NE wizard at least has a personal reason for killing his targets. The assassin doesn't even have the thin excuse of personal motives for killing his target.

You can argue all you want. I say that an assassin who kills for his country is still evil.

Like someone pointed out, an assassin is not just killing people. An assassin represents the pinnacle of achievement in the art of killing people. In my opinion, someone like that is definately no longer Good, and probably not even Neutral.

 

[Xarlen]

OKay... what power of the assassin is evil?

The Death Attack is basicly a supped up Sneak Attack. You know exactly Where to hit an unsuspecting target to kill them. Just like knowing exactly what, where, and how to hit someone to kill them, without a struggle.

This sounds to me like Special Forces stuff. Intense anatomy. Especially when you need to learn how to wack them right off, and study to get their weaknesses.

Then we have poison usage. Poison is NOT EVIL. It perhaps isn't lawful, or atleast isn't Honorable, but it isn't, inheritly, evil.

And the spells, none of them are evil. But how the heck does an assassin, a rogue basicly, get spells anyways? I never liked that.

I don't see why an Assassin couldn't be a Neutral or Good individual. Is there a BBEG, a general about to bring an army down on a small country who can't defend itself? Get yourself an assassin to wack the badguy before he can destroy the happy little country. Same with other targets who are *especially* evil. A group of assassins taking out a Dragon, for instance.

An assassin working for Good, ne? 'Killing this evil wretch so others may live'.

 

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

I don't have the books in front of me, and I can't remember... if an Assassin loses his powers if he strays from the path of Evil, I would suggest that those powers are independent from his skills and prowesses; that the Assassin's power is granted to him because he is Evil - or that the Assassin is Evil because of the Evil powers that are granted him. If not, the Assassin should be able to use his Assassin powers for Good instead of Evil with no problems.

If, however, the Assassin doesn't lose his powers (as I said, I can't remember), that does, indeed, suggest that the only Evil about the Assassin is HOW she uses those powers, not the powers themselves. And Good Assassins would be feasible - if unlikely.

This is, of course, assuming it has to make sense - which it hasn't since it's a game and just has to be playable.

And it doesn't change my original position on Paladins, Barbarians, Monks and other must-be-certain-alignment-classes. The powers wielded by those characters is chaotic or lawful or what have you IN THEMSELVES and it doesn't matter what state of mind the character who used them was in.

 

[Oni]

And the spells, none of them are evil. But how the heck does an assassin, a rogue basicly, get spells anyways? I never liked that.

Assassin's learn their spells like wizards. They have to keep spellbooks, they gain two spells each level. Their power doesn't come from any other source, it simply is arcane.


[edit: the above poster does have a point. Due to the nature of 3e rules if you lose a prereq for a prestige class you lose access to all the granted abilities, so if they are not evil, they have no powers. Does this make sense? In my opinion no, but it is the way the game currently works (maybe they revise...hopefully).]

 

[Xarlen]

They lose the power when they turn good.

But, why? What EVIL makes up the ability to know where to hit someone to kill them? Or a knowledge of poison? Or hightened Sneak Attacks?

Sure, the spells, but I see no reason why an assassin should have them in the First place. They are *assassins*.

My idea of an Assassin is a rogue who specializes in this sort've thing. So everything is skill based. Why is it that simply because they are 'Eeevil', they can do this?

 

[megamania]

Chuin always said "assassination is the greatest gift to the public" or something like that. 'allo Silvertable good to see you here.