Why are they keeping ability scores?

[Cadfan]

Mathematically, having ability scores that immediately translate into another value adds nothing to the game. Its an extra calculation.

But its probably one of the most sacred of all the sacred cows.

What they SHOULD do, but almost definitely won't do, is this-

The 3 to 18 distribution exists because 3d6 provides an ok little bell curve for people who roll for stats.

Roll 3d6 just like we do now, translate that into an ability score bonus, and then throw away the original number. From that point on, your "ability score" would be what we currently call your "ability score bonus."

An effect which currently gives -4 strength would then give -2 strength. The exact same thing would be accomplished mathematically as the current system accomplishes, except that we wouldn't have to always think, "oh yeah, that was a penalty to the ability score, so the ability score bonus changed by half as much."

It saves the trouble of one additional calculation each time a score changes. Which isn't a massive inconvenience, but its an absolutely pointless inconvenience.

Except this cow is probably too sacred to slay.

 

[JoeGKushner]

No, you're not seeing it. Bonuses are a linear representation of the stat as of 3E. Every 2 points in a stat = 1 point of bonus. Because that relationship is fixed, it becomes meaningless. Nothing in the game is rolled off the stat, only off the bonus. Only the bonus matters. With point buy, just start at 0 and buy your bonus.

Since rolling will be a variant anyway, just make a table that says: "Roll 3D6 and consult this table to find your bonus" and has lines like "10-11: 0:" and "14-15: +2". The game will work the same but there will be 6 fewer boxes on your character sheet.

Edit: maybe you are seeing it based on your second post

That's one of the things I enjoyed about True 20.

In previous editions, the fact that not every stat used the same modifier or that Strength ad a % modifier or that only certain classes gained bonuses from having high levels, there was 'kinda' a reason for stats to be represented differently.

But once it became a static formula (stat -10(/2)), stats should've died.

 

[Oldtimer]

But for all intent and purposes your cleric does have a negative dexterity... there games like Talislanta (or more recently True 20) that use negative scores already.

Mathematically, I agree. Emotionally, I don't. A Dex of 7 feels low (if you know the average is 10-11), but a Dex of -2 feels... wrong. My dexterity is less than none? I'm clumsier than a piece of rock? (Yes, I understand it means I'm clumsier than the average guy.)

I know other games use it, I'm just pointing out another reason people might not like it in D&D. We don't normally state our low abilities in negative terms. "I ran the mile in -3 minutes", "I can only press -40 lbs", or "I am -2 inches tall".

 

[Rechan]

I'm pretty sure that almost all gaming systems have ability scores of some degree. Hero, GURPs, White Wolf Games, etc etc.

I can't think of a gaming system that doesn't have some score that reflects your abilities.

 

[jdrakeh]

I'm pretty sure that almost all gaming systems have ability scores of some degree. Hero, GURPs, White Wolf Games, etc etc.

I can't think of a gaming system that doesn't have some score that reflects your abilities.

I think that he meant to ask why WotC didn't drop ability scores and just go with the modifiers (like True 20) since those are the only numbers that have a significant impact on actual play.

 

[Nikosandros]

I'm pretty sure that almost all gaming systems have ability scores of some degree. Hero, GURPs, White Wolf Games, etc etc.

I can't think of a gaming system that doesn't have some score that reflects your abilities.

Spirit of the Century doesn't have ability scores, but that's besides the point. I was talking about using what is currently the modifier as the score itself (the same way it is in True 20).

 

[Nikosandros]

If it's like 3E with a 0 average, you are right. But of course, they have implied 0 will be the minimum and there will only be bonuses, in which case this would also work without using the scores.

People keep posting this... but what is the source? From what I understand the raw ability modifiers will be the same, but checks are always modified by half the character level.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I can think of one advantage of keeping 3-18 (etc) scores, and that is to make more meaningful ability checks.

For instance, when opening doors and attempting to hit DC10 on 1d20+Str bonus, the 18 Str Conan doesn't have much of a benefit over the 10 Str merchant.

If, however, there was a class of activity where you rolled 1d20 +ability SCORE, that would allow for a more reasonable degree of differentiation.

I'd love to see ability checks factored around d20+ability score vs DC20 as the baseline, rather than d20+ability bonus vs DC10 as the baseline. Make the abilities make more difference.

I' don't think we are likely to see it happen, but it would resolve one of the issues that niggle me (the number of times that the 18 Str guy has bounced off a door twice only for the 10 Str Rogue to push it open is ludicrous )

Cheers

 

[Nikosandros]

I actually introduced this as an houserule in 3e, but I think that it's very unlikely that such a rule will be in 4th edition.

 

[xechnao]

I can think of one advantage of keeping 3-18 (etc) scores, and that is to make more meaningful ability checks.

For instance, when opening doors and attempting to hit DC10 on 1d20+Str bonus, the 18 Str Conan doesn't have much of a benefit over the 10 Str merchant.

If, however, there was a class of activity where you rolled 1d20 +ability SCORE, that would allow for a more reasonable degree of differentiation.

I'd love to see ability checks factored around d20+ability score vs DC20 as the baseline, rather than d20+ability bonus vs DC10 as the baseline. Make the abilities make more difference.

I' don't think we are likely to see it happen, but it would resolve one of the issues that niggle me (the number of times that the 18 Str guy has bounced off a door twice only for the 10 Str Rogue to push it open is ludicrous )

Cheers

If ability stats had a say limit of 20 it would be fine. But as it is it breaks the higher the abilities get to go.