Why are they making demi-humans taller?

[DestroyYouAlot]

However, if you're trying to reduce a full-size human to half his height, and still maintain the original proportions, the math (squares, surface area and other whatnot details) will result in a much lighter, thinner humanoid. Take a 6-foot-tall adult weighing 160 pounds, for example. Shrink him to only 3-foot-tall with the same leg-to-torso-to-arm-to-head proportions. He's gonna weigh 20 pounds.

Sounds ridiculous, I know. But that's what they're talking about with halflings, I think.

Well, fair enough - that's one vote against 3e-style waifish halflings. Anyone else?

 

[Driddle]

Well, fair enough - that's one vote against 3e-style waifish halflings. Anyone else?

I didn't vote against previous halfling design. Far from it -- I'm totally OK with the idea of a fantasy race that size, and even being as tough and strong as a "medium" human. I just assume some sort of magical biological nature or really dense tissue. ... I find the 4th edition tallifying(?) unnecessary.

 

[Aus_Snow]

That female half-orc looks really cool.

Oh yeah, nonhuman races and their heights. . . it's about time elves were taller, as in LotR.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

From a rules and balancing standpoint, small PC races are a pain in the ass to implement while trying to retain any semblance of realism. It causes too many secondary effects that have to be accounted for. For spell casters, it is not such a great problem. But for anyone who has any reason to ever want to engage in physical attacks, it is a pain in the ass.

- It is hard to have melee oriented players that take a strength penalty.
- The str penalty even applies to bows
- the movement penalty is a huge annoyance to deal with
- Working out how a 3.5 foot tall person can use the same weapon as a 6 foot tall person is an annoyance.
- Encumberance is a problem

The only upside to small sized PC characters is a marginal bonus to AC and Hide skills. The attack bonus is washed out by the Str penalty. The rest of the bonus is just fluff.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[JDJblatherings]

STR penalty of -2 isn't much of a barrier.

Bows are a huge issue ...how? A PC fighter is still likely to have a positive STR modifier.

The move "penalty" isn't a "huge annoyance" , movement rates are clearly spelled out in the rules.

In 3.5 weapon size issues are completely covered by the rules, there is nothing to work out.

Encumberance is only a problem for folks that can't add and subtract.

Why should a halfling fighter be the same as a human fighter?

A medium sized character isn't going to be able to find cover and concealment as easily as a small sizaed character. players of small sized charcetrs that realzie how much more cover is available to them certainly benefit from it many times over becasue they learn how to play a small character as oppsoed to a medium character.

 

[I'm A Banana]

However, if you're trying to reduce a full-size human to half his height, and still maintain the original proportions, the math (squares, surface area and other whatnot details) will result in a much lighter, thinner humanoid. Take a 6-foot-tall adult weighing 160 pounds, for example. Shrink him to only 3-foot-tall with the same leg-to-torso-to-arm-to-head proportions. He's gonna weigh 20 pounds.

Sounds ridiculous, I know. But that's what they're talking about with halflings, I think.

But halflings aren't just "half-sized people." They are AT LEAST as distinct as a great dane and a chihuahua. If I got hit with a shrink ray, I wouldn't expect to be very strong, but if I've had generations of breeding and have grown up with it...

It makes more sense to think in terms of Chimpanzees than in terms of Children. You do not need to be tall to pack one heck of a wallop.

I'm with another poster....the motive for this change just strikes me as another failure of imagination.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Point by point statements of disagreement with me

Ok, let me explain my reasoning.

-- STR -2 / Bows are a
Generally, when someone is making a character, there is a tendency to optimize. -2 Str is not much of a barrier, and can be worked past. But if your looking to create a longsword specialist, your not going to take the character race with a -2 Str penalty. And in 3rd edition, every small sized race in the PHB has the Str penalty.

Even if you do not go for a melee type, the Str penalty to hit and damage still applies to bows. Essentially, if your not going for a spell caster, your probably not going for a size small character.

-- Movement 20
Yes, the rules are clear and easy to apply. The problem is from the tactical disadvantage in combat. Being last to enter melee because everyone else moves faster sucks. Dwarves get around it by not losing movement in heavy armour, so they can keep pace with humans / elves / half orcs. Gnomes and Halflings in heavy armour get to move a whole 10 / round. Halflings can get around it by generally being optimized for Dex. Gnomes end up getting to be a crappy choice for melee combat due to either a poorer AC than the MV 30 crowd, or by just being a whole lot slower.

-- Weapon Size
Again, this is not a difficulty in applying the rules. This is a difficulty that arises due to the tactical disadvantage of having every weapon (melee, ranged, and even the Monk unarmed damage) you use a smaller damage die than the medium weapon of the same type.


Encumberance is only a problem for folks that can't add and subtract.
Why should a halfling fighter be the same as a human fighter?
A medium sized character isn't going to be able to find cover and concealment as easily as a small sizaed character. players of small sized charcetrs that realzie how much more cover is available to them certainly benefit from it many times over becasue they learn how to play a small character as oppsoed to a medium character.[/QUOTE]

Why should a halfling fighter be the same as a human fighter?
They should not. However, they should be roughly about as effective if the same level.

A 6th level human fighter will be doing a baseline 1d8+X damage with either a martial melee weapon or just 1d8 with a long bow. He can wear medium armour and only lose 1/3rd of his movement, giving him a good AC.

A 6th level Halfling fighter will have a better AC due to the Dex and Size bonus. He will do a baseline of 1d6+X-1 damage in melee relative to a human who made similar stat assignment choices in point buy. Using a long bow he will do 1d6-1 due to the str penalty. He could wear medium armour, but will lose half of his movement if he does so. The Low light vision is a very helpful advantage.

In general, someone interested in playing a Halfling is better off playing an Elf. The Con penalty sucks, but not as much as a Str penalty and the size penalties to weapon damage. Someone wanting to play a Gnome is better off with a Dwarf unless they want to play a Sorcerer, Wizard, or Bard.

To put it more simply, in 3.5 and 3.0, being a size small character generally sucks a whole lote more than it should. Str penalty I could live with, but the reduced damage for size small weapons in 3.5, and the movement penalty are particularly egregious.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[JDJblatherings]

A 6th level Halfling fighter will have a better AC due to the Dex and Size bonus. He will do a baseline of 1d6+X-1 damage in melee relative to a human who made similar stat assignment choices in point buy. Using a long bow he will do 1d6-1 due to the str penalty. He could wear medium armour, but will lose half of his movement if he does so. The Low light vision is a very helpful advantage.

He is not likely have a STR penalty if he is a fighter build. He just is not likely to have as high a STR bonus as a human fighter could, at first level. Sure the halfling may be STR 13 instead of STR 15 so in melee he will be 1d6+1 as opposed to 1d8+2 in damage.
He'll be hitting just as often and have a better armor class in the same armor as the human fighter. Give them both a chain shirt and the human DEX 11 will be AC 14 compared to the hallfings AC 16.

In a head to head fight (if these fellows ar elevel 1 with no other combat effectign feats) the human fighter is hitting the halfling 40% of the time and the halfling is hitting the human 45% of the time. teh human comes out slightly head with a probable damage of 2.6pts inflcited agaisnt the halfling who wll be strikign a probablt 2.025 against the human.

the human can improve his AC by getting a light shield so his AC is now 15 and the halflign can improve his weapon choice to a greatsword so he is dishing out 1d10+2 now (with no feat selection required). now the hallfing is hitting the human only 40% of the time but the outcome is likely different as he is still only dishing out a probable 2.6 pts on the halfling but the hallfign is now disihing out 3 pts of damage a round.

Yes there is a wide range of combinations we can play here but the halfling can be played with different startegies that dont' require a different character build. the charcter is demonstratably versatile and as thus playable.

Put the halfling and the human both in a room with a 4.5 foot high ceiling and things look pretty good for the halflings.

I once had dungeon with mostly 2 1/2 foot wide corridors and 4to 5 foot high ceilings, the gnomes and halflings in the party did great. There was no great contrivance there either beyond the enemies, kobolds, building a lair their size.

 

[DestroyYouAlot]

I didn't vote against previous halfling design.

(Psst - joking. Poorly, perhaps, but joking all the same.)

 

[DestroyYouAlot]

From a rules and balancing standpoint, small PC races are a pain in the ass to implement while trying to retain any semblance of realism. It causes too many secondary effects that have to be accounted for. For spell casters, it is not such a great problem. But for anyone who has any reason to ever want to engage in physical attacks, it is a pain in the ass.

- It is hard to have melee oriented players that take a strength penalty.
- The str penalty even applies to bows
- the movement penalty is a huge annoyance to deal with
- Working out how a 3.5 foot tall person can use the same weapon as a 6 foot tall person is an annoyance.
- Encumberance is a problem

The only upside to small sized PC characters is a marginal bonus to AC and Hide skills. The attack bonus is washed out by the Str penalty. The rest of the bonus is just fluff.

END COMMUNICATION

Is rules reflecting fluff a bad thing? Do all class combinations have to be equal? If people take halfling fighters because they want to play a halfling fighter, even if it's not quantitatively the most optimal choice, then I think we're doing it right. Slaving the design philosophy to powergamers and the almighty "balance" is appealing to the lowest common denominator.