Why are they stopping at level 30?

[HP Dreadnought]

30 is plenty. The biggest problem with the Epic Level Handbook was the fact that the created infinite scalability. . . in theory. In fact, it broke down rather quickly as others have pointed out.

30 levels is plenty really. If you want to go higher than that, maybe you should be playing a super-heroes game?

 

[Doug McCrae]

Why not 40th and have a longer sweet spot?

Why 40 and not 50? Is 40 some magical number?

 

[Barastrondo]

I would also guess that if you put too many levels in there (leaving aside the disagreements over what is "too many"), you risk creating a perception that large chunks of the book are useless among players who don't tend to go all the way to the level cap every campaign. If you've been in three campaigns over the last two years, and none of them made it past 22nd (very arbitrary example, mind), how valuable is the material on levels 21-30? How valuable would 31-40 be? I mean, heck, we're already seeing sentiments like that on this thread, regarding the previous edition's epic play. Having level systems that go all the way up to, say, 70 (waves at World of Warcraft) is a lot easier when you can be leveling an hour every day, instead of having to wait for a group getting together.

What I'm really curious to see is the implementation of the three different play styles (heroic/paragon/epic). Locally, we tend to muck around with D&D for heroic-style play, and use a superhero system for epic fantasy. There are huge advantages to using separate systems and settings designed for each level of play; I'm interested in seeing the sales pitch for using one system and setting for all three.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Anyone know why they are stopping at level 30? Is this some magical number?

jh

Yes, it is a magical number.

 

[Emirikol]

Yes, it is a magical number.

Dang. Well I guess that answers that question

jh

 

[DaveMage]

As I said in the other thread, I'm sure you'll see a supplement for levels 31+ later.

Limiting the game otherwise would be (IMO) a foolish design decision for a game that otherwise has infinite possibilities. (And, of course, 1E-3.5E had unlimited progression too.)

(The multiverse is a big place.)

As for those who don't like such high levels, that's fine, but my epic campaign was a blast. We stopped at level 27 (due to real life issues), but otherwise could easily have continued for quite some time.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

I don't really agree. The modifiers of all classes advance at the same rate, so +15 at level 30 becomes the new baseline. If challenges at that level require rolls of ~15 points higher (e.g., ACs are 15 points higher, or instead of unlocking normal locks rogues face intricate lock mechanism, or... ) than those at level 1 than the amount of randomness in the game stays the same.

The problem with that is some classes will get better, much better, at certain thing while everyone else stay at the static baseline. A Wizard may well stay at or near 1/2 level to hit, but a fighter will get bonuses because of class, feat selection, weapons, etc. These numbers will be smaller and more spread out than 3x, but they will eventually accumalate to a point of making a dice roll less meaningfull than the bonus.

It has to be this way, or else the game would have no growth for the PCs, and thus no point in even having levels. If evey level gave you a +1 to everything, no more, no less, the only reason to keep track of your level would be to tell you how easily you can beat the tar out of something lower in level than you.

 

[Celebrim]

It has to be this way, or else the game would have no growth for the PCs, and thus no point in even having levels. If evey level gave you a +1 to everything, no more, no less, the only reason to keep track of your level would be to tell you how easily you can beat the tar out of something lower in level than you.

Diablo was deliberately designed this way. The numbers got bigger, but the relative strength of the character was supposed to be roughly constant throughout his career so that game play would be impacted minimally by the levelling process.

Effectively, there was no point in having levels beyond the prestige involved in having them.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Yes, which made the numbers completely irrelevant. In order to create a game that does not eventually "break down", you would have to design out +x bonuses. Diablo could have been played without any discernible difference if the only thing you got from each level was a unique ability, not bonuses. For example, the Barbarians leap ability. There was no + to hit, just the ability to ignore terrain to a degree. Keeping track of the bonuses was just mental ************.

You could create a game where all of your bonuses were defined at first level. Take your ability scores, add a race template, a class template, and a handful of discretionary +s to customize. From there on out, you would only gain abilities that broke the base rules by giving you unique options, such as Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Track, etc. You would have the same exact game as a static increase game, but without the math. I don't think it would be a bad idea, maybe even as a different take on the E6 idea. However, I don't think it would be D&D any more, and certainly not a D20 game.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Rem,

I get the thinking that although they don't want it to be 3.x, they didn't know how to move beyond that. I agree that there needs to be some kind of limit (for gods/uber-epic/whatever), but why 30th? Why not 40th and have a longer sweet spot?

jh

Well, look at what the characters are doing in each level range.

"Heroic" characters (1-10) are dungeon-raiders, taking on local challenges.

"Paragon" characters (11-20) fight to alter the destinies of whole nations, and they face up against strange and unearthly foes like demons and beholders.

"Epic" characters (21-30) have the power to singlehandedly alter the fate of the entire world. In fact, a level 30 party with enough resources, dedication and luck can take down a GOD. And epic characters can have a "destiny," which works mechanically sort of like a prestige class, which culminates in them retiring from adventuring and moving on to something else.

What, exactly, would a level 40 party do? They'd be literally godlike by that level.