Why are Warforged so bad?

[ThirdWizard]

So because they arn't immune to all the necromancy spells its okay for them to be immune to a bunch of them? Note that those controling undead abilities won't be as potent if you choose undead that deal neagtive levels. They're also immune to some other spells outside the necromancy school.

Evocation 100% effective? Sure. Evocation isn't the best school, though.

What about a warforged ranger who specializes in bows? Isn't hit with hp damage as often, can be easily cured by wizards/sorcerers who are in the back with him (or via spectral hand), and are immune to pesky spells like hold monster as well as all that discussed. Or rogues. They don't have to worry about a lot of traps (status effect ones) and don't normally wear heavier than leather armor anyway.

 

[Seeten]

Weapon focus: Some weapon, so they get a +1 to hit, at the cost of NEVER, EVER, being able to wear decent armor? Boy, a fighter in leather armor, thats a good character. Yeah, really viable warrior there.

 

[Marshall]

They're immune to envervation & energy drain. They're immune to energy draining effects of many undead (wights for example). They're immune to ray of exhaustion, contagion, and waves of fatigue. They're immune to more spells. And, this is just one of the benefits that a warforged gets.

OTOH, they are vulnerable to Heat/Chill Metal, the anti-construct line of spells, and rust attacks. There might be an advantage here, but its actually pretty small.

They have 25% immunity to death attacks from assassins as well as sneak attack damage. They have feats that can up this.

They come with a suit of (essentially)Padded +1 Light Fort armor that they cant take off. Not only does that introduce ASF and other penalties, but it permanently uses up the armor/robe slot so it can only be improved by feats.

Enhanced saves, I could see. First level characters immune to entire lines of spells? Come on...

Does it really matter that a 1st level character is immune to a 4th level spell?
Immunity to the fatigue line is kinda nice, but only about equal to the elven immunity to the sleep line. That they get it piled on top of the immunity to the sleep line is a plus.
In all honesty, I've seen poison(s) used once since 3e came out. I dont see it as a big advantage. Especially since by the time that you should be facing poisons, the DCs are so low that a bonus CON race is nearly immune anyway.

 

[Storm Raven]

Okay, so the warforged takes Weapon Focus. I see nothing preventing a warforged from taking good feats...

Its all about opportunity cost. For every "good feat" the warforged take, they must forego one of the "super-powerful" feat options that people keep talking about like Adamantine Body. If you take one, then you've used that feat slot, and can't take the other. A human fighter can spend one feat and have Weapon Focus and with the application of some cash, adamantine armor. A Warforged can have one or the other with that feat slot.

 

[fanboy2000]

So because they arn't immune to all the necromancy spells its okay for them to be immune to a bunch of them?

Yes. The claim was that warforged were immune to a necromancer's major attack forms. Ability drain is a major necromancy attack form, warfroged aren't immune to it. Sneek attacks are major attack forms of assassins, warforged aren't immune them. Warforged can, as early as 6th level, become immune to sneek attacks, but then they become immune to healing spells.

There are 13 necromancy spells that affect other PHB PCs, but don't affect warforged. Warforged are harmed by an additional 5 spells that PHB PCs aren't. That's a trade off about 8 spells the warforged are ahead by. But then you throw in all the healing spells, and well, the trade-off becomes a bit strange then.

Also, sense we're talking about the low-level campaigns, warforged are susceptible to all four 1st level necromancy spells.

Evocation isn't the best school

True, I rather like the joys of enchantment, or illusion. Nothing says rat basterd DM like mind-control and mis-direction.

What about a warforged ranger who specializes in bows? Isn't hit with hp damage as often, can be easily cured by wizards/sorcerers who are in the back with him (or via spectral hand), and are immune to pesky spells like hold monster as well as all that discussed. Or rogues. They don't have to worry about a lot of traps (status effect ones) and don't normally wear heavier than leather armor anyway.

Ok, so the warforged specializes in bows. I've seen this build before, but it was a half-elf 3.0 ranger. It's a good build with many races, not just warforged. You did hit on something though. It would require a Wiz/Sor to heal him. While easy, this requires an expenditure of limited resources. One of the arguments against warforged is that their immunities don't require the expediture of limited resources. Healing spells, of any stripe, are a limited resource.

To answer the title of this thread, the problem with warforged is that they have a long list of racial abilities. Some are immunities, some arn't. This makes it difficult to gague how powerful a warforged is without running one yourself, or DMing one in a long term campaign.

 

[Arnwyn]

Where in the core books is that depth spelled out?

You don't know the 'core' books very well if you need to ask that question.

 

[fanboy2000]

You don't know the 'core' books very well if you need to ask that question.

He he, I didn't know the real answer to that untill I read it last night.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Yes. The claim was that warforged were immune to a necromancer's major attack forms. Ability drain is a major necromancy attack form, warfroged aren't immune to it. Sneek attacks are major attack forms of assassins, warforged aren't immune them. Warforged can, as early as 6th level, become immune to sneek attacks, but then they become immune to healing spells.

Ah, well I would never claim that.
I was merely pointing out that there are attack forms in necromancy that a warforged would be immune to, making it more difficult for the necromancer to take on the warforged than, say, a human. I think I run counter to a lot of people here, in that I see a fair amount of level drain being used when dealing with necromancers (arcan or divine). YMMV

For the record, I see type non-humanoid as worth around LA +.5 by itself. Warforged, for example, can be polymorphed into Construct type monsters. When he's a golem, things kind of look different.

It would require a Wiz/Sor to heal him. While easy, this requires an expenditure of limited resources. One of the arguments against warforged is that their immunities don't require the expediture of limited resources. Healing spells, of any stripe, are a limited resource.

At the same time, though, that's saving the cleric resources that would have gone to the character otherwise. Plus its easier for the wizard to heal the character in this particular case. Actually, at low levels its easier for the wizard/sorcerer to heal utilizing spectral hand, which can also be used for an offensive spell afterward.

 

[fanboy2000]

Ugh, polymorph. That's spell has several threads dedicated to it for good reason.

Moving away from the immunites, we've gone as far as we can go with that, another problem is campaign design. As Kamikaze Midget, an all undead or all poison campaign is out. When you use Warforged as a playable race in Eberron, all the support material is written for you. What extra work is needed is done by campaign designers. When you take warforged out of Eberron, and put it in a campaign setting that only uses rules from the three core books, warforged don't fit so neatly. Also, if your already running a well designed and thought-out campaign, warforged might be over or under powered depending on the campaign you run.

Any well designed campaign is going to have to take into account the changes the DM makes to the standered setting. Kamikaze Midget's argument falls appart when you realize that warforged are only annoying to DMs who wouldn't include them anyways. Some of the things he would change altter the feel and flavor of warforged to me. Requiring an energy source makes them into robots. You can argue that they're robots anyways, but powering them by magic adds more flavor to the game and distances them from the robot shtick. Ditto for breathing and such. Removing the construct type and replaceing it with humanoid also distances the flavor of warforged for me.

My point is this: the argument against warforged simply isn't a straight game mechanical one, it's one based on the DMs choice of campaign. Eberron is takes warforged into account and does it well. Other campaigns don't. I find it interesting that one person who said they mined ECS for ideas and included warforged in their game, altered their flavor radically.

 

[ARandomGod]

Its all about opportunity cost. For every "good feat" the warforged take, they must forego one of the "super-powerful" feat options that people keep talking about like Adamantine Body. If you take one, then you've used that feat slot, and can't take the other. A human fighter can spend one feat and have Weapon Focus and with the application of some cash, adamantine armor. A Warforged can have one or the other with that feat slot.

See, I personally think that Adamantine body is actually a horrible thing, and one of the main disadvantages of the class. They HAVE to take this feat at first level, or they can never get 'good' armor. And worse yet, there are only two types of armor that they can get (other than their base), both of which would require their only first level feat. If you're playing a fighter (or other character that will get armor), you can expect to get that later. Is it true that so many people really *would* permanently lose their first level feat to permanently get adamantine full plate that they can sleep in (and must sleep in, and can never take off?) I mean, unless you're playing a game wherein you'll never see that kind of equipment, what you've done is give up something good now but will get better and better as time goes on (being one step further up the feat chain) for something that's great now, but will get less and less good as time goes on. Seriously. Adamantine is +15,000 gold, and full plate is 1,500 gold. Are you really saying that a feat is worth only 16,500 gold pieces? Can I buy an extra one from you at level 10 for that price? Because I don't know a single character who wouldn't.

And it's not even the 'best' armor for all occasions. However it IS the only one offered. I'm playing in a game now where my character has taken that feat. Sure, it's pretty good at low levels, but we rarely play long in the low levels... we like to quickly go up to level 6 or so before starting to slow down... I'm hoping that eventually my GM will let me do something to alter the composition of that armor to mithril full plate instead of adamantine, because that would be so much better for my particular character. It'll probably cost around a limited wish (at least that's what I'd charge)

I think it's so very odd that people seem to think that's a good feat, because IMO it's the biggest drawback of the race.