Why are Warforged so bad?

[ARandomGod]

Well, if you honestly believe that, then nothing I'm going to say will convince you, and only ARandomGod can correct your assumption.

Done, although it sounds like it was an honest miscommunication.

So, for the price of a feat, the warforged fighter gets to have armor that is worse than what a fighter of any other race could have purchased. And without the feat, the warforged fighter is really getting hosed.

I'm pointing out that it is a disadvantage of the Warforged.

Yup. That's really the reason I pointed it out. I still additionally think that
1) For the cost of a feat, they really could have made the armor type more flexible (Although admittedly they did pick the two most popular armor types)
2) Later, in another book, they'll print something that does #1, in order to make real people pay real cash for it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Sorry, that's still a very inconvincing argument. If your DM skills are so feeble that "different is bad" is an insurmountably tough challenge for you, then maybe you shouldn't be behind the screen. The warforged have some immunities that make them impervious to some attacks and tactics, but their nature is readily apparent to everyone. Intelliegent enemies should have a grab bag of attacks designed to exploit their weaknesses.

Again, I never accused the warforged of being unplayable. Just awkward. I never said that the immunities were an insurmountably tough challenge. But they *are* something different enough to have to take into account. And there's a HUGE difference between not being able to play with something and not wanting to. Note:

A DM of basic skill level has it within his power to run a fun adventure for a great wyrm red dragon, a stone golem, an ice elemental half-vamire rogue, a dwarven wizard, a human paladin, and an intelligent gelatinous cube who has the ability to cast cleric spells somehow....But most DM's don't really want to be bothered with taking into account all those dramatic differences in the party, and if they do it once, they generally don't want to have it as repeat themes in their ongoing game.

If something is going to be different, it better have a dang good justification for that. The Warforged are different, and they have *no* good justification for that. They could be the same and not suffer.

Why are they different? Why do they need to be? Why does the fact that I want races LA +0 in my game to generally work the same way suddenly mean that I'm an incompetent DM?

They are different basically for the sake of being different, and that is bad, not just for my games, but for the games of MANY DM's out there. It's not bad for yours? Fine. But that doesn't make the Warforged any less wierd.

 

[Storm Raven]

Again, I never accused the warforged of being unplayable. Just awkward. I never said that the immunities were an insurmountably tough challenge. But they *are* something different enough to have to take into account. And there's a HUGE difference between not being able to play with something and not wanting to. Note:

Of course, that's just a fancy way of saying "different is bad", which is silly. Different is not bad. If different were bad, then why would you play a game with a half dozen base PC races and hundreds of monsters? You are just saying this different is bad, because it makes me think about what I am doing.

If something is going to be different, it better have a dang good justification for that. The Warforged are different, and they have *no* good justification for that. They could be the same and not suffer.

What is the "justification" for elves being different? For dwarves? For halflings? And so on. You just don't like them because they are unfamiliar, which is a mighty unconvincing argument. So some of your tried and true tactics don't work against them, maybe you should get some new tactics. It sounds to me like you have fallen into a rut, using the same things over and over again to the point where you can't concieve of a campaign where they might not be universally effective.

Why are they different? Why do they need to be? Why does the fact that I want races LA +0 in my game to generally work the same way suddenly mean that I'm an incompetent DM?

Because LA +0 can mean a lot of things. And the incompetence is in being unable to adapt.

They are different basically for the sake of being different, and that is bad, not just for my games, but for the games of MANY DM's out there. It's not bad for yours? Fine. But that doesn't make the Warforged any less wierd.

They aren't bad, they are different. Saying "different is bad" over and over again doesn't make it any more of convincing argument. It just makes you sound silly.

 

[Storm Raven]

Warforged can buy better armor. The composit plating can be enchanted just like regular armor, wich is the same as buying better armor.

Only if by "just the same as" you mean "costs enormously more than", since a human can buy a suit of mundane full plate for far less than a warfogred can get magical enhancments to his composite plating.

 

[I'm A Banana]

What is the "justification" for elves being different? For dwarves? For halflings? And so on. You just don't like them because they are unfamiliar, which is a mighty unconvincing argument.

They're not different. They are the same. They are humanoids. They have no broad immunities (four spells and one monster's attack doesn't make an immunity broad). They heal naturally. They breathe, they eat, they age, they die. They get sick, they have babies, they have a culture.

Warforged are quite clearly quite aberrant, I'm giving the designers credit and saying that this was intentional, and they are intentionally abberant in a way that makes the job of being a DM more difficult. I'm not about to make my job more difficult for the sake of a race that loses nothing when it's still simple. I don't call you narrowminded, incompetent, and unable to adapt just because you won't allow great wyrm red dragon samurai into a normal party, why do I get accused of such things because I won't allow things that don't eat, breathe, age, die, have broad immunities, and have no cost associated with that into the party? What's so sacred and special about the Warforged that makes their aberration acceptable? Put simply, why should I? And why do you feel the need to cast aspersions and deride my skill because I don't? I mean, seriously, did I hurt your feelings or something?

Warforged are wierd as their mechanics stand now. There's no good reason for me *too* accept them and their wierdness, so I don't. In as much as game design exists to get the new mechanics to be used, the Warforged is an utter failure for me because they're just too wierd for me to accept at LA +0.

Unless you think that people who don't accept great wyrm red dragon samurai in their games are "incompetent" and have an in ability to adapt? In which case, I think you've just called the vast majority of this board incompetent.

 

[Storm Raven]

They're not different. They are the same. They are humanoids. They have no broad immunities (four spells and one monster's attack doesn't make an immunity broad). They heal naturally. They breathe, they eat, they age, they die. They get sick, they have babies, they have a culture.

And yet, they are all wildly different from one another. Some can see in the dark. Some can't. Some are resistant to magic, some aren't. They have different sizes. The differences between most of the standard PC races are a large as the difference between them and a warforged. You just think the warforged are radically different because they are new.

Warforged are quite clearly quite aberrant, I'm giving the designers credit and saying that this was intentional, and they are intentionally abberant in a way that makes the job of being a DM more difficult. I'm not about to make my job more difficult for the sake of a race that loses nothing when it's still simple. I don't call you narrowminded, incompetent, and unable to adapt just because you won't allow great wyrm red dragon samurai into a normal party,

Except I would, if the party was of sufficient level that the LA didn't make him over the party norm.

why do I get accused of such things because I won't allow things that don't eat, breathe, age, die, have broad immunities, and have no cost associated with that into the party? What's so sacred and special about the Warforged that makes their aberration acceptable? Put simply, why should I? And why do you feel the need to cast aspersions and deride my skill because I don't? I mean, seriously, did I hurt your feelings or something?

You get accused of it because that's what your argument boils down to. Basically your argument is "different means I have to be flexible in challenging the party, and that's bad". I'm only reducing your argument to its essentials. I haven't called you anything that you haven't called yourself through your arguments. And if you are too inflexible to respond to anything that is unusual, then your DMing skill are pretty feeble.

Warforged are wierd as their mechanics stand now. There's no good reason for me *too* accept them and their wierdness, so I don't. In as much as game design exists to get the new mechanics to be used, the Warforged is an utter failure for me because they're just too wierd for me to accept at LA +0.

LA isn't a wierdness scale. You are measuring the wrong thing with LA, and that's your problem. LA is a power scale. And when you balance out their advantages and drawbacks, they come out to an LA +0. Wierdness doesn't enter into the picture.

Unless you think that people who don't accept great wyrm red dragon samurai in their games are "incompetent" and have an in ability to adapt? In which case, I think you've just called the vast majority of this board incompetent.

I think you are inflexible and incompetent because you can't adapt to the relativley minor challenges posed by an LA +0 race. I'd allow a great red wyrm red dragon samurai, at an appropriate level for the party, but that's a different kettle of fish, because it's not an LA +0 race. That you can't figure out the difference there just indicates that you aren't really thinking through your arguments, rather than just spluttering objections.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think a lot of people are forgetting the light fortification part.

Of course it isn't an additional +6 AC, its +6 to AC instead of wearing armor. At higher levels, just about everty fighter will be able to easily afford better aqrmor than the warforged, for a very modest investment of their total wealth.

Completely the opposite of that.

So the warforged gets for a feat: full plate with DR 2/adamantine of light foritification as opposed to full plate with DR 3/adamantine. The light fortification is essentially free of the +10 limit on armor, so he can enhance his armor up higher than the equivalent figher. Advantage warforged.

You know, I understand exatly what your talking about. If I only had one shtick as a DM, I'd be upset with a race that was immune to it too.

I don't think that's fair. I've never run a campaign like that, and if I wanted to, it would suck to have a warforged in the party. Not saying I would allow it or disallow it, but in that circumstance, I would rather not have it be an option. I'm sure my players are nice enough to not play one if I ask nicely, though. Actually they agree that it should be LA +1, so...

It's nice that you can sleep in it (well, you don't sleep, but same thing), and that's almost worth a feat (like endurance), but your first level feat?

A barbarian in my current game took Endurance at first level...

Maybe a fighter feels the bite less, even they feel it, and any nonfighter feels the hit pretty hard. AND it's restrictive. It can't be any type of armor. I'd personally want mithril full plate.

Technically, if they really want it, you can get the Adamantine Body and make it "mithral." Another feat lowers the ACP and gives a higher dex boost available. I don't think its worth a feat, personally, but it is still an option for those who really want it.

But better yet, IMO, would be for it to not cost a feat, and for them not to come with armors, but to be able to buy better armors later on like more normal characters. Along with the ability to take said armor off... you could make the time to take off the armor much, much higher, like 8 hours.

Great, so a house rule might pull them back in line. Enough that I think it would be LA +0 instead? Probably not.

Sure. Depending on circumstances. So what you're saying is that anyone with the exact perfect class and choice of play can be fine, while everyone else is screwed to varying degrees? That's my point too, you know. ~_^

Balance should be maintained on what can be done under best case scenarios. That's why I think they should be LA+1 after all. A barbarian warforged is at a disadvantage. Well, so its a barbarian halfling or elf. They should be balanced off of what they do best, not what they do least well. You can't say "most groups won't powergame this race" and decide that its okay.

But to someone who's "against androids" it's a significant distinction. I mean, just becuase they can't imagine the concept as different, doesn't mean it's not different. There are people who don't think that there should be much magic in fantasy games either.

From what I've heard of them, I like to think of them like Kurt Russell in the movie Soldier.

 

[I'm A Banana]

And yet, they are all wildly different from one another. Some can see in the dark. Some can't. Some are resistant to magic, some aren't. They have different sizes. The differences between most of the standard PC races are a large as the difference between them and a warforged. You just think the warforged are radically different because they are new.

Actually, they're quite old. If I was gonna be angry about new things, I'd be griping about catfolk. Notice I'm not? Perhaps you'd like to reassess the straw man you've set up?

The differences between warforged and other races is IMMENSE, much more so than the difference between a halfling and a half-orc. Just take a look at the immunities post above to see how much *more* needs to be thought about with the Warforged that doesn't need to be considered withuot them. No other PC race in the game at the same LA has their breadth of powers, immunities, and vulnerabilities. This quanity and quality makes them different.

Except I would, if the party was of sufficient level that the LA didn't make him over the party norm.

.....why be that narrowminded and uncreative? Certainly any DM worth his salt can challenge creatures of vastly differing abilities and talents? Those who don't are obviously just scared of change! Having a powerful party member creates adventure opportunities and abilities that are so much fun and so many interesting role-playing opportunities are present!

LA isn't a wierdness scale. You are measuring the wrong thing with LA, and that's your problem. LA is a power scale. And when you balance out their advantages and drawbacks, they come out to an LA +0. Wierdness doesn't enter into the picture.

Actually, that's a dangerously narrow definition power and balance. Balance doesn't come from giving them a +10 to attack rolls but a -10 to AC. That's horribly unbalanced. Suddenly they're paper tigers. They can hit anything, but cannot avoid getting hit. This means that they are drastically wierd and will have to be taken into account when designing adventures: they have to be challenged but not killed, and that requires a deftness and attention that isn't nessecary. It's not a choice of strength and weakness, it's a force on the hand of the DM to pay attention. And to a certain degree, that's exactly what the Warforged do.

When the game is set up to challenge creatures of basic human-like function, creating a race that is not (one that is wierd) makes them inordinately powerful simply because the game isn't built from the ground up to challenge them. You can re-build the game, but, again why should I?

I think you are inflexible and incompetent because you can't adapt to the relativley minor challenges posed by an LA +0 race. I'd allow a great red wyrm red dragon samurai, at an appropriate level for the party, but that's a different kettle of fish, because it's not an LA +0 race. That you can't figure out the difference there just indicates that you aren't really thinking through your arguments, rather than just spluttering objections.

Won't =/= Can't. In your race to insult me, you deftly made quite a nice handful of assumptions about who I am and what I'm capable of. You missed. Calm down, jump off your high horse, and try not to address me as if I was some lesser form of human for disagreeing with you, kay?

It's not a different kettle of fish. I'm sure we could get a million and one suggestions for how to allow that into a party that is 1st level and still have a dynamic and fun game where everyone can contribute. The red dragon is just going to have special attention.

That's the same situation, just a worse offender: a creature that is drastically different than the rest of the party, e.g.: weird. Too wierd for most DMs to really bother allowing into a level one party without thinking about quite a bit. Warforged require less thought, but they're not as wierd. "Power" is just another form of wierdness.

 

[Belen]

KM: You have convinced me. If I ever run in Eberron. Warforged will have the humanoid type. That is WAY too many spells and monsters to have a defacto immunity too.

 

[Belen]

I think you are inflexible and incompetent because you can't adapt to the relativley minor challenges posed by an LA +0 race. I'd allow a great red wyrm red dragon samurai, at an appropriate level for the party, but that's a different kettle of fish, because it's not an LA +0 race. That you can't figure out the difference there just indicates that you aren't really thinking through your arguments, rather than just spluttering objections.

If warforged immunities are "minor" for you, then I have some land in Florida with only minor problems.