Why are Warforged so bad?

[ThirdWizard]

The arguments for warforged being LA+0 instead of LA+1 at this point have just gotten out right bad. They range from "they can still die" to "+8 armor bonus with light foritification and DR 2/adamantine is bad."

Please make some decent points so that I can feel it is worth my time to explain my side.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Wait ... Which one's your side?

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think they should be LA +1.

Or do you just want to argue?

 

[Wild Gazebo]

And the argument 'cause I have to think to put them in my game' is better? Or do you like the 'clunky' argument? How about the different argument? Or, they have immunities? Or, well a bonus and a hinderance don't cancel each other out. I've seen just very poor arguments on BOTH sides. I've never met anybody who has actually had problems with warforged in a game. Only people who don't like them on paper. And, admittedly I don't like them on paper much. But, I really don't think they are a +1 race...I think they should be...but I would get ride of some of their half traits. KM's build is a good compromise and a bit more elegant than what Wizards released. But, again, I've seen no sound aguments for them being too powerful...nor any evidence.

 

[ThirdWizard]

In a nutshell:

Pros:
Built in armor (can be enhanced)
-- they can never lose their armor, they can never be caught without their armor
25% negation to sneak attacks, criticals and death attacks
-- free armor of light foritification
immune to poison, sleep, paralysys, disease, nausia, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain
--a long list of immunities
Construct type
--immune to "person" spells, can polymorph into constructs
auto-stablize, doesn't take damage from exertion at 0 hp
--a good boost but nothing much at higher levels
doesn't eat, sleep, or breathe, but can if it wants to
--basically it can swim and never drown (they don't sink like people keep saying), and they don't need to eat or sleep either, both good

Cons:
--they make bad clerics and sub-par paladins
cannot heal damage naturally
--non issue
cure spells are 1/2 effectiveness
--pretty bad but not as bad as people are making it out to be, assuming you have an arcane caster able to cast the cure spells. With a wand of specral hand, they're even better. A drawback, but an upplayed one [EDIT]The warforged says "Hey wizard, you're part healer now, and hey cleric, you now have some more time to do other things besides heal than you had before."[/EDIT]

They actually make very good rogues and rangers. A warforged ranger in the back peppering with arrows, or stealthy rogue will go pretty far. They don't want the armor feats, and wouldn't wear much better armor than leather anyway. A ranger will get Endurance for free and then can take Diehard, so they can act until they're at -10 without any bleeding to worry about.

I prefer to balance based on what could be potentially abused rather than the idea that most groups won't play the warforged to their best ability, which they won't. But, still when designing material, it is best to look at it from every possible angle to determine what a smart player/group could do rather than what most people will do with it.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

cure spells are 1/2 effectiveness
--pretty bad but not as bad as people are making it out to be, assuming you have an arcane caster able to cast the cure spells. With a wand of specral hand, they're even better. A drawback, but an upplayed one.

Its much more of an issue than you're making it out to be. From what I've seen, the Arcane caster would rather use blasting type spells than heal. That's for the Cleric to do.

Really, you're still just listing down the stats and making a decision based on that. You canNOT do that when determining the balance of something. It just doesn't work.

Now, I may have missed something here, but I seem to be noticing that those more 'against' Warforged as they are haven't actually see them in play, while those 'for' them, HAVE. That means much, much more than is being credited to. Again, in MULITPLE games that I've both run and played in with DIFFERENT groups, Warforged are not in any way deserving of a LA +1.

Yes, they looked that way before I saw them in action. But with four different groups, and six different Warforged among them all with different players, I've seen otherwise. Dismiss anecdotal evidence all you'd like, but this sounds far too much like the whole Mystic Theurge argument before people actually saw them in play.

 

[Gez]

I think that if they were LA +1, nobody would ever want to play them. No. bo. dy. Ever.

Therefore, they are well placed by being at LA +0.

Sure, they have a package of immunities and vulnerabilities that are different from the usual humanoid's. And this was the intent, they open a way to play something really different without being penalized for it.

I should point out that if you're out to look for abuses and munchkinism, you'll find far more of them for changelings and shifters than for warforged.
► Having the shapechanger subtype, they are quasi-immune to baleful polymorph (they can revert to their natural form as a standard action).
► They can qualify for the Warshaper prestige class as soon as level 4, and thus become Warshapers at level 5 (no other race can).
► They are always proficient with all simple weapons (something druids, monks, and wizards would otherwise not have), and with shields if they are proficient with any armor (something rogues would otherwise not have).

Shapechanger Subtype: A shapechanger has the supernatural ability to assume one or more alternate forms. Many magical effects allow some kind of shape shifting, and not every creature that can change shapes has the shapechanger subtype.
Traits: A shapechanger possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

• Proficient with its natural weapons, with simple weapons, and with any weapons mentioned in the creature’s description.
• Proficient with any armor mentioned in the creature’s description, as well as all lighter forms. If no form of armor is mentioned, the shapechanger is not proficient with armor. A shapechanger is proficient with shields if it is proficient with any type of armor.

And I've spared you the "they've all Improved Unarmed Strike, since they are proficient with their natural weapons."

 

[ThirdWizard]

Its much more of an issue than you're making it out to be. From what I've seen, the Arcane caster would rather use blasting type spells than heal. That's for the Cleric to do.

Nothing in the game says the cleric has to heal. The arcane caster wants to blast instead of heal? Fine, he can go do that somewhere else with the clerics who want to be party tanks. Really, if they split up the healing duties, then they should both be fairly happy.

This is why I see warforged ranged users as better than warforged meleers. It's dangerous for arcane casters to go near melee (thus having to use spectral hand or that ranged touch feat). An archery based warforged is much closer to the healing that it will need. A melee based warforged is better off backing off when things get rough to be healed by the wizard, which means they'll want a secondary front-liner there, or they'll have to put up with 1/2 healing.

Really, you're still just listing down the stats and making a decision based on that. You canNOT do that when determining the balance of something. It just doesn't work.

I do think it does work. Because most people won't utilize warforged to their best ability. They'll play a barbarian warforged or a fighter warforged in a party where the arcane caster refuses to be healer and everyone accepts that as fine.

Dismiss anecdotal evidence all you'd like, but this sounds far too much like the whole Mystic Theurge argument before people actually saw them in play.

Ahh the wonderful MT. My main issue with them still stands. They're horribly generic. Like the eldritch knight - ugh. Warforged on the other hand, I love thematically. Like I said in an earlier post, they remind me of Kurt Russell's character in Soldier. Great movie.

I have this little powergamer inside me that I have to supress. Years of video games, I guess. And it really wants to play a warforged. 21 AC with DR and light fortification at first level? Immunity to level drain and poison? I just have to convince the wizard to help heal me? Sign me up! It sounds much better to me than a dwarf.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think that if they were LA +1, nobody would ever want to play them. No. bo. dy. Ever.

Therefore, they are well placed by being at LA +0.

That would be because almost noone ever wants to play an LA+1 anything unless its obviously overpowered (read: origional half-ogre). Is that a good reason to make them LA +0? Maybe in Eberron, I don't know. But, I don't think it is in a generic Greyhawk campaign.

I should point out that if you're out to look for abuses and munchkinism, you'll find far more of them for changelings and shifters than for warforged.

Well bring on that thread!

Looks to me like Eberron has upped the power of possible player races, and the game is balanced with that in mind. Is that a fair assumption of the design of Eberron?

 

[Wild Gazebo]

I'm afraid I can't argue with anyone who thinks Soldier is a good movie.