Why are we trying to make 1st level PCs tougher?

[Li Shenron]

If my players are afraid to lose their characters, I generally have no problem in giving some extra protection to make them feel more safe.

That said, I think everyone everywhere just has some tendency of making their character stronger, anywhere from 1st level to 20th level. Doesn't matter what the rules give your PC in the first place, half of the players will always be totally convinced that it needs a boost.

In fact, I think that one of reasons why lots of gamers complain that 3ed is too fast in levelling up, is because the PCs are buffed up in the first place, while the monsters are not compensated. Instead the DM simply throws higher-CR monsters than before, thus increasing the XP rate.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Well, Saga handles it nicely by granting 1st level characters triple starting hp (fighter = 30 hp, wizard = 12 hp etc).

The only thing is, in Saga, your average schmoe has a blaster that deals 3d6 or what have you; so maybe grant D&D characters double starting hp?

 

[Virel]

Maybe that's just your experience. I've seen lots of 1st-level players get killed while using reasonable and even excellent tactics.

That can happen, sometimes it's luck sometimes it's a bad DM.

I guess some will see this as bad DMing. I think it was stupid play, and pretty typical of what I've see get PC's killed, time after time in several different editions of the game.

Adventure party is seven PC's and seven players. After finding an entrance and camping for the night, the three of the players (all experienced 3e players) decide to slip away and do a little recon in the dead of night. One player, mentions they probably shouldn't be spliting the group up. Another player comments due to the challenge rating, what ever encounter they experience will have to be scaled to them. I point out this is AD&D, and in AD&D we don't scale encounters. They just slip off and enter the cave. After a few turns about 100 ft in they hear noise in front of them. They press on and run into three goblins. The PC's attack the goblins. There is a lot of noise. The fight goes on for a little while.

Three more goblins come up from behind. The PC's start to panic when a PC goes down. No effort to form up back to back was taken or in a little triangle to avoid leaving ones back exposed. Soon it's one PC vs four goblins and he makes a run for it, barely surviving. The three players got mad that the encounter was too hard for them. They were mad and started whining.

My reply was

o they splitting up the party without cause.
o They failed to cover their rear.
o They made a lot of noise
o They didn't try to form up to protect each others backs
o They did have the option to avoid the encounter

The other four players who had watched with great interest, found this pretty funny and told the first three, they got two PC's killed because they were stupid.

It was an easy encounter the whole party of seven would have rolled with little risk. The Mu's sleep spell would have taken almost all the risk out of it. Of course, they wanted to cut the wizard out the reward, so they left him behind.

PS - The war dog was the ticket back in the day at low level. Dawgs, Mooks, & Red Shirts what more does an enterprising really need?

 

[tomBitonti]

Missing evaluations ...

But now, orcs can have class levels. The danger level of an encounter is unknowable just by looking at the opponents in (or before) round 1. So the PCs need to be able to suck up a hit or two, to know how much danger they're in.

As I see it, there a couple of problems: First, the game doesn't provide a very good mechanic for communicating to players the threat level of an encounter. Second, the game mechanics discourage you from spending time evaluating your opponents. (Who wants to spend a round or two sizing up their opponent after initiative has been rolled? As well, how often do players attempt to bluff or intimidate themselves through an encounter? That is a *lot* of what happens in many fights. It seems that once initiative is rolled, the gloves are off and it is now a fight to the death.)

I think that players (together with their DM) can overcome these problems -- if they work to do so.

 

[pawsplay]

Well, Saga handles it nicely by granting 1st level characters triple starting hp (fighter = 30 hp, wizard = 12 hp etc).

The only thing is, in Saga, your average schmoe has a blaster that deals 3d6 or what have you; so maybe grant D&D characters double starting hp?

Mandatory Toughness makes for a better game, imho.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

In fact, I think that one of reasons why lots of gamers complain that 3ed is too fast in levelling up, is because the PCs are buffed up in the first place, while the monsters are not compensated. Instead the DM simply throws higher-CR monsters than before, thus increasing the XP rate.

...huh?

Isn't the entire point of getting tougher to take on tougher monsters?

And if I recall correctly, monsters got buffed in the edition change, now having con bonuses and such.

Brad

 

[Quartz]

Surely, if you want to start with tougher characters, you can start them at L4 or whatever? Call L1-3 apprentice levels or whatever you want.

Surely it has ever been so that starting characters are weak, so they should be faced with weak challenges - zombies and the like, not humans and orcs?

 

[Eric Tolle]

Playing smarter, usually does wonders for making charcters more survivable at all levels but most of all at 1st.

Wary, "smart" players are fine, as long as one doesn't mind the game stopping for a while at each encounter.

And the neat thing about that is that hour or two that the players spend arguing about the best thing to do gives the GM time to check his notes, maybe go out and have a cig, surf the net, watch some TV....

Teamwork and some basic tactics go a long way a lot of the time.

I've always found it amusing when novice adventurers, who have never set foot outside of their village or encountered any monsters in their life, will abruptly become smooth, calculating, tactical geniuses. As if they've been doing this for years.

 

[Asmor]

I've always found it amusing when novice adventurers, who have never set foot outside of their village or encountered any monsters in their life, will abruptly become smooth, calculating, tactical geniuses. As if they've been doing this for years.

In all fairness, the primary purpose of the game is for the players to have fun, and running straight at/running straight away from the enemy with no tactical thought can be awfully boring.

Unless you're my group. Bloody blighters don't know the meaning of the word tactics.

 

[Technik4]

Roll Initiative!

1. Monsters
2. Player 1
3. Player 2
4. Player 3
5. Player 4

Round 1
The Monsters attack! DM rolls 17, 15, 18, and 20! for the monsters. Players 1-4 take damage, Player 4 is seriously wounded. Players roll 10, 12, 5, 2. None of the monsters get hit!

Round 2
The Monsters attack! DM rolls 13, 8, 18, and 14 for the monsters. Players 2+3 fall unconcsious, Player 4 is bleeding heavily. Player 1 runs....


At low levels fighting is very random and up to the dice or DM fudgin. More hp let PCs pull out of a bad first round or a series of bad rolls.