Why aren't D&D dogs more like real dogs?

[Dreaddisease]

I ask this as a general question as to why a dog in a party has the worst spot (as smell) or listen when I have never seen a dog miss a beat on what is going on around them. Less domesticated pups seem to have a sixth sense of danger or a perception of what danger should be.

To put this in perspective we have a 3rd-4th level party and the cleric with plant/animal domain has a riding dog and a stallion as animal companions. Yet in the middle of the night we get attacked and the dog misses all checks (or in some cases gets no checks considering all creatures asleep are consiered unaware). Plus on top of that the dog gets flat footed (YEAH RIGHT). Even with up wind/ down wind stuff there is an unrealistic property of the most faithful of companions.

Any comments?

 

[Erratic K]

I ask this as a general question as to why a dog in a party has the worst spot (as smell) or listen when I have never seen a dog miss a beat on what is going on around them. Less domesticated pups seem to have a sixth sense of danger or a perception of what danger should be.

To put this in perspective we have a 3rd-4th level party and the cleric with plant/animal domain has a riding dog and a stallion as animal companions. Yet in the middle of the night we get attacked and the dog misses all checks (or in some cases gets no checks considering all creatures asleep are consiered unaware). Plus on top of that the dog gets flat footed (YEAH RIGHT). Even with up wind/ down wind stuff there is an unrealistic property of the most faithful of companions.

Any comments?

um you rolled crummy? Or the GM did...

Dogs get scent track and spot... okay the spot is only +5 if I remember correctly.... Actually a 3-4th level character might have a better spot/listen than a normal dog. So I think your experience is about right.

-E

Keep in mind, it is a fantasy game, not emulating real life. If it emulated real life it might be boring...and there sure wouldn't be magic...

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Well... Read the rules for the Scent ability a little closer.

From the SRD:

SCENT

This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.

A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.

The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.

So, assuming a liberal DM, a dog (or horses or any other creature with scent) will know something funny is going on whenever something with an unfamiliar smell comes with 30'. That's when the dogs head and ears perk up, or the horses get jittery. Know the dog still doesn't know where the threat is coming from... It either needs to take a move action to pinpoint the threat's location by scent, or make a Spot or Listen check. Now, while the dog's Spot/Listen may not be better than that of a experienced and trained adventurer, it's still much, much than your average commoner.

A typical dog would rely a little more on its sense of smell to warn it of danger than its eyes or ears.

 

[Tonguez]

Most dogs are short sighted so I'd say the spot +5 is about right actually. What dogs rely on is Scent (primarily) and Listen.

As Jack Haggerty mentioned Scent has a range of 30 ft and as he suggests a Dog should be able to use this ability 'passively' (even while asleep).

What really needs to be done is for Listen to be expanded into a 'Alertness' skill which can be used to cover Listen/Scent etc (Touch - tremorsense/Taste).
Spot should remain a sperate skill however

 

[I'm A Banana]

Does the thing smell like anything?

Then the dog should notice it within 30 ft. Pretty much without fail.

And noticing something like that would be like someone hearing a twig snap in the darkness and waking up.

 

[Elaer]

I think it may have been a reactionary move against the 2e system, where domesticated animals were second only to dragons and orcus in terms of melee capability.

Ever run a second edition battle between an elven cat and three elven warriors... the flying furball of doom will whomp on their bipedal oppressors.

 

[Dreaddisease]

I understand the scent thing, the problem I have with that is most movement is 30ft and there are plenty of intelligent creatures that have a movement greater than that. So it seems that any surprise round would always catch a dog (or any creature with the scent quality) off guard. I don't think this is possible. Has anyone tried to approach a cat or dog at full speed or with a charge attack while that creature is sleeping? If surprise round can exist in combat wouldn't the creature be prone to the approach no matter what?

Of course now I am getting into combat problems. One where almost all combats (Especially surprise attacks) start with the attacking party moving at a full movement rate before attacking (Or even worse, charge attacks).

Now this is turning into more of a gripe than an actual constructive discussion.

I guess what I'm after is a useful game mechanic (not overpowering) that really does reflect a creatures survival instincts, especially one as well trained as a dog. Scent is a close range thing. Maybe considering the possibility that a dog always has a readied action, even while asleep, and that action is to quickly retreat a few yards (meters) and bark his/her head off.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Well, I think that the level of heroism and fantasy needs to be taken into account.

"Most People" are commoners, or experts at best. Maybe warriors. The animals whomp their booties every single frickin' time. +5 to spot? No normal person (and by that I mean you) can ever get that much. Even an exceptional person (the proverbial 'eagle-eyed scout') won't get that or much close to it with the few paltry levels they pick up defending the outpost.

If the dog is traveling with the party, the dog (like any cohort) should get XP for the adventures the party undertakes and, like any party member, should increase in level. This increase brings skill points, feats, etc. It should be a HEROIC dog. Thus, he'd increase alongside the adventurers, and while many wuold be able to be as keen at detecting something as him, many more wouldn't be.

I mean, I've snuck up on sleeping dogs before, and, according to D&D, I'm probably at best a second level expert (I'm being VERY generous here). If I can do it, something obviously more powerful than me shuold be able to, as well.

Yeah, dogs will rock any common burgaler or orcish scout, no problem. And if it wants to detect the supersneaky goblin rog7, then it needs a few levels, too, MacKenzie!

Basically, there should be no 'trump card.' If you want dogs to be super sensitive to super sneaks, give 'em a few levels. Otherwise, a +5 is more resepctable than any common human being could do, so they *are* better than you, a common human being.

That's the inherent heroism of the system. Just like a knife to the back won't always kill a HERO, a HERO can sneak past dogs and other canines like they're nothin', especially while they're sleeping. Unless, of course, those dogs have that same HERO status....in which case, an interesting scene occurs, because a heroic dog will usually sense a heroic person of the same level. Why should a barbarian/rogue be ALWAYS caught by a sleeping dog when he's a HERO? He's capable of cleaving plate mail and wields an axe that bursts into flame! He's not going to be caught sneaking around by a mutt!

Also, IIRC, being asleep just gives you a -8 to Listen and Spot. So even a sleeping dog can detect an advancing troop, just like a sleeping human could hear a twig snap....if they're heroic enough, if they've got enough levels...

Basically, D&D dogs are like real dogs...it's just that D&D monsters and characters are pretty much removed from reality by quite a leap and bound by virtue of levels and XP. If you want the dog to be able to conquer something that much removed from reality, remove it from reality yourself, slap a level or two of ranger on the thing (or just HD advancement), and call it an *encounter!*

 

[reapersaurus]

For what it's worth, I totally agree with you.
I hadn't realized how flawed the skills/Scent system is/are until you brought it up like this.

I don't see a fix to make it close to reality.
With brute force, you might get passably close to reality, but it's not gonna be elegant.

IMO, there is NO WAY an adventuring dog (hunting dog) is going to be able to be snuck up on in the wilderness by anything short of supernatural.
We're not talking about completely domesticated, sit-on-your-butt-and-eat-dog-chow animals here.

 

[I'm A Banana]

An adventuring dog should have a few more levels than the things straight out of the MM, and accordingly WILL have better stats...

A Goblin Rogue *is* supernatural. It has XP. For your usual coyote or foxhound, this is a brand new thing....