Why aren't D&D dogs more like real dogs?
- Thread starter Dreaddisease
- Start date
Dreaddisease
First Post
Thanks. I am thinking I will try to talk to my DM about animal advancement while in our ranks.
What XP would a dog begin with? And considering it starts with 3 HD would that mean he should start with 6000+ XP but that wouldn't make sense since it is a 1 CR creature but then how do you do the HD progression?
Okay enough questions for now.
What XP would a dog begin with? And considering it starts with 3 HD would that mean he should start with 6000+ XP but that wouldn't make sense since it is a 1 CR creature but then how do you do the HD progression?
Okay enough questions for now.
MerakSpielman
First Post
You could rule that a dog specially trained for guarding is allowed to take 20 on its Spot and Listen checks.
CR doesn't enter in to it. It's a measure of what kind of fight a creature can put up against a group of 4 adventurers, nothing more.Dreaddisease said:
I would simply go with treating the dog as a 3rd level follower, as it's the simplest way to handle things. Keep in mind that this means the dog gets a share of the XP, reducing the amount the actual party members get. When the dog gets enough XP to level up, add on another Animal HD, and all that entails (more BAB, saves, skill points, feats, ability score increases, etc.). If your DM is especially generous, he might let the dog get larger as its HD increases, as per the normal monster advancement rules.
cptg1481
First Post
Dogs and Those who love them!!!!
I too can sneak up on my own dogs (they are mutts, untrained in house protection etc.), however, I'm just guessing here (not an animal expert BTW) but I think the key factor is that part about it being one's own dog.
I mean they know who you are and everything and they know that they are relatively safe when in their own home while you, the pack leader, are there. OTOH, my dogs bark like crazy when a stranger walks by on the sidewalk (across the street, about 50' or so) near our house. This is during the day, at night, in any kind of weather etc. However, I can come home at 0300 use the garage door opener, enter the house, heat up something in the microwave, and never even get so much as a grunt from either of them.
Likewise when one of my buddies comes by unannounced the same docile beasts wake from a dead sleep at my feet in the basement and run to the door barking like mad while the guys are still in the driveway. Often they haven't even exited their car yet. I have plenty of warning there.
While this is not a tested theory I'd say it has to do with the fact they can hear or somehow sense and I would say also identify the sound my car makes and other things about me from a great distance. Once identified as a non-threat they take little notice. Also, about spot, they bark like crazy at night when in the back yard at anyone walking down the sidewalk when they turn the corner (about 200' away) onto out street but somehow they don't bark at me and my daughter at all even in total darkness from the same distance. They must be able to somehow identify us, perhaps by out gait or our low voices or smell, who knows but they can.
IMC (not that my players would ever consider it) dogs would be like the above.
Also in real life, I am a soldier and can tell you from experience dogs, especially, those of the rural variety are way more alert than city dogs. I mean when I was in the Q course at Ft. Bragg, walking around at night we had to take extra care to avoid the multitudes of dogs in and around the farm houses. Hell, they would bark a lot, perhaps not even at us sometimes but it does give one an unsettling feeling to be walking like 200-300 meters from a house and the dog starts barking away....sometimes followed by the porch light and even the owner a few seconds later. The dogs had to have some idea something was out there.
I know its a game and needs to be somewhat abstract for playability reasons but I think it doesn't take a lot of searching to find examples of dogs throughout history alerting their handlers to danger at great distances and in circumstances well beyond the 30' smell range given in the DMG.
Thanks to this little article I am going to change the stats for dogs/wolves right now. Maybe like +10 listen, +10 spot and change the range of their scent to say 120'. Also, I will give them a +5 insight bonus to the detection (all senses)of their favored enemy (selected by the owner/handler, counts as two of his tricks DC 20 to train and takes 2 months of time).
Therefore say an outpost is bordered by a marsh and suffers yearly raids by lizardfolk, the lord orders the dogs trained to detect them as their favored enemy. For wild animals it'd be say the most widely available and suitable prey animal - i.e. elk, rabbits, or deer etc.
Perhaps a feat or two related to the ability to sense certain objects needs to be made as well, like steel, metal or gold, even poison, magic and such. We can train dogs to detect cancer, why not magic? maybe a feat to give it a psionic type ability to sense when something is just not right....strong evil (or good, dogs works with their masters regardless of politics) etc., nothing exact but say they wake up well before an earthquake or natural disaster, perhaps alerting the people early and giving them precious moments before the event increasing their chances to detect the danger on their own....The dog wakes you up taking away the -10 modifier for being asleep. Yea I know its a game.....but I like dogs what can I say. They need some beefing up.
I'm off to do some stats crunching.
Perhaps not a perfect solution but a decent first cut IMO...
I too can sneak up on my own dogs (they are mutts, untrained in house protection etc.), however, I'm just guessing here (not an animal expert BTW) but I think the key factor is that part about it being one's own dog.
I mean they know who you are and everything and they know that they are relatively safe when in their own home while you, the pack leader, are there. OTOH, my dogs bark like crazy when a stranger walks by on the sidewalk (across the street, about 50' or so) near our house. This is during the day, at night, in any kind of weather etc. However, I can come home at 0300 use the garage door opener, enter the house, heat up something in the microwave, and never even get so much as a grunt from either of them.
Likewise when one of my buddies comes by unannounced the same docile beasts wake from a dead sleep at my feet in the basement and run to the door barking like mad while the guys are still in the driveway. Often they haven't even exited their car yet. I have plenty of warning there.
While this is not a tested theory I'd say it has to do with the fact they can hear or somehow sense and I would say also identify the sound my car makes and other things about me from a great distance. Once identified as a non-threat they take little notice. Also, about spot, they bark like crazy at night when in the back yard at anyone walking down the sidewalk when they turn the corner (about 200' away) onto out street but somehow they don't bark at me and my daughter at all even in total darkness from the same distance. They must be able to somehow identify us, perhaps by out gait or our low voices or smell, who knows but they can.
IMC (not that my players would ever consider it) dogs would be like the above.
Also in real life, I am a soldier and can tell you from experience dogs, especially, those of the rural variety are way more alert than city dogs. I mean when I was in the Q course at Ft. Bragg, walking around at night we had to take extra care to avoid the multitudes of dogs in and around the farm houses. Hell, they would bark a lot, perhaps not even at us sometimes but it does give one an unsettling feeling to be walking like 200-300 meters from a house and the dog starts barking away....sometimes followed by the porch light and even the owner a few seconds later. The dogs had to have some idea something was out there.
I know its a game and needs to be somewhat abstract for playability reasons but I think it doesn't take a lot of searching to find examples of dogs throughout history alerting their handlers to danger at great distances and in circumstances well beyond the 30' smell range given in the DMG.
Thanks to this little article I am going to change the stats for dogs/wolves right now. Maybe like +10 listen, +10 spot and change the range of their scent to say 120'. Also, I will give them a +5 insight bonus to the detection (all senses)of their favored enemy (selected by the owner/handler, counts as two of his tricks DC 20 to train and takes 2 months of time).
Therefore say an outpost is bordered by a marsh and suffers yearly raids by lizardfolk, the lord orders the dogs trained to detect them as their favored enemy. For wild animals it'd be say the most widely available and suitable prey animal - i.e. elk, rabbits, or deer etc.
Perhaps a feat or two related to the ability to sense certain objects needs to be made as well, like steel, metal or gold, even poison, magic and such. We can train dogs to detect cancer, why not magic? maybe a feat to give it a psionic type ability to sense when something is just not right....strong evil (or good, dogs works with their masters regardless of politics) etc., nothing exact but say they wake up well before an earthquake or natural disaster, perhaps alerting the people early and giving them precious moments before the event increasing their chances to detect the danger on their own....The dog wakes you up taking away the -10 modifier for being asleep. Yea I know its a game.....but I like dogs what can I say. They need some beefing up.
I'm off to do some stats crunching.
Perhaps not a perfect solution but a decent first cut IMO...
MeepoTheMighty
First Post
I think this thread is a good indication of why a d20 dog book would sell well. If I weren't so lazy and/or incompetent, I'd write one myself. 
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
If you're going to give dogs +10 to Spot and Listen, you might as well give cats +15 to Spot and rule that they "take 10" on all attacks (pouncing). You could also rule that Lizards take extra subdual damage from cold (from the cold bloodedness, you know!), and get a +30 to hit bugs with their tongues.
That, and Spiders get a +26 to Hide in Leaves and Freak the Heck Out of the Missus.
Also, humans shuold be able to acquire a feat that lets them read the stars for astrological signs and gain 'hippie points' for hugging trees.
I mean, after all, if you're going to up the power of one critter just because it seems like they're a lot better than they actually are, you shuold probably be fair about it.
These 'sixth senses' that animals have are as far as I can tell no more than extremely developed normal senses. Yeah, the dog can hear your car, and knows your gait from someone else's, and can distinguish your smell. Kind of the same thing as that general feeling of 'what should I do?' when you walk into a friend's house for the first time, or a general feeling of putting on a show when company is over....it's fundamentally no different, and the game doesn't take it into account for ANYTHING, which is perfectly OK.
Basically, if you start saying "Dogs can sniff out cancer! They get a +10 to Spot!", you start kind of having to say "Bees can see in Ultraviolet! They get a +20 to see bright things!" or "Because snakes live in deserts, they get Fire Resistance 3!" or "Since bears can hibernate, they cannot be fatigued from starvation!", and "Wet things should take more electricity damage!" and "We need rules for how zebras confuse lions....they get a +5 hide vs. color-blind animals!"
It just gets really silly really quickly, and, I think, unnessecarily. Of course your dog can notice someone who's strange entering your house. So can you. Your dog just barks at it.
That, and Spiders get a +26 to Hide in Leaves and Freak the Heck Out of the Missus.
Also, humans shuold be able to acquire a feat that lets them read the stars for astrological signs and gain 'hippie points' for hugging trees.
I mean, after all, if you're going to up the power of one critter just because it seems like they're a lot better than they actually are, you shuold probably be fair about it.
These 'sixth senses' that animals have are as far as I can tell no more than extremely developed normal senses. Yeah, the dog can hear your car, and knows your gait from someone else's, and can distinguish your smell. Kind of the same thing as that general feeling of 'what should I do?' when you walk into a friend's house for the first time, or a general feeling of putting on a show when company is over....it's fundamentally no different, and the game doesn't take it into account for ANYTHING, which is perfectly OK.
Basically, if you start saying "Dogs can sniff out cancer! They get a +10 to Spot!", you start kind of having to say "Bees can see in Ultraviolet! They get a +20 to see bright things!" or "Because snakes live in deserts, they get Fire Resistance 3!" or "Since bears can hibernate, they cannot be fatigued from starvation!", and "Wet things should take more electricity damage!" and "We need rules for how zebras confuse lions....they get a +5 hide vs. color-blind animals!"
It just gets really silly really quickly, and, I think, unnessecarily. Of course your dog can notice someone who's strange entering your house. So can you. Your dog just barks at it.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
If you're going to give dogs +10 to Spot and Listen, you might as well give cats +15 to Spot and rule that they "take 10" on all attacks (pouncing). You could also rule that Lizards take extra subdual damage from cold (from the cold bloodedness, you know!), and get a +30 to hit bugs with their tongues.
That, and Spiders get a +26 to Hide in Leaves and Freak the Heck Out of the Missus.
Also, humans shuold be able to acquire a feat that lets them read the stars for astrological signs and gain 'hippie points' for hugging trees.
I mean, after all, if you're going to up the power of one critter just because it seems like they're a lot better than they actually are, you shuold probably be fair about it.
These 'sixth senses' that animals have are as far as I can tell no more than extremely developed normal senses. Yeah, the dog can hear your car, and knows your gait from someone else's, and can distinguish your smell. Kind of the same thing as that general feeling of 'what should I do?' when you walk into a friend's house for the first time, or a general feeling of putting on a show when company is over....it's fundamentally no different, and the game doesn't take it into account for ANYTHING, which is perfectly OK.
Basically, if you start saying "Dogs can sniff out cancer! They get a +10 to Spot!", you start kind of having to say "Bees can see in Ultraviolet! They get a +20 to see bright things!" or "Because snakes live in deserts, they get Fire Resistance 3!" or "Since bears can hibernate, they cannot be fatigued from starvation!", and "Wet things should take more electricity damage!" and "We need rules for how zebras confuse lions....they get a +5 hide vs. color-blind animals!"
It just gets really silly really quickly, and, I think, unnessecarily. Of course your dog can notice someone who's strange entering your house. So can you. Your dog just barks at it.
That, and Spiders get a +26 to Hide in Leaves and Freak the Heck Out of the Missus.
Also, humans shuold be able to acquire a feat that lets them read the stars for astrological signs and gain 'hippie points' for hugging trees.
I mean, after all, if you're going to up the power of one critter just because it seems like they're a lot better than they actually are, you shuold probably be fair about it.
These 'sixth senses' that animals have are as far as I can tell no more than extremely developed normal senses. Yeah, the dog can hear your car, and knows your gait from someone else's, and can distinguish your smell. Kind of the same thing as that general feeling of 'what should I do?' when you walk into a friend's house for the first time, or a general feeling of putting on a show when company is over....it's fundamentally no different, and the game doesn't take it into account for ANYTHING, which is perfectly OK.
Basically, if you start saying "Dogs can sniff out cancer! They get a +10 to Spot!", you start kind of having to say "Bees can see in Ultraviolet! They get a +20 to see bright things!" or "Because snakes live in deserts, they get Fire Resistance 3!" or "Since bears can hibernate, they cannot be fatigued from starvation!", and "Wet things should take more electricity damage!" and "We need rules for how zebras confuse lions....they get a +5 hide vs. color-blind animals!"
It just gets really silly really quickly, and, I think, unnessecarily. Of course your dog can notice someone who's strange entering your house. So can you. Your dog just barks at it.
hunter1828
Butte Hole Surfer
All the animals belonging to the party members in my main campaign react as I think they should rather than strictly based on Spot, Listen, Alertness or Scent. The dog picks of scents, growls when things aren't right, tucks its tail when scared, etc. The red tiger growls, hisses and lowers it's ears. The elven cat...well, it just prattles on to the elf about how delicious weasels are, but that's another story.
I had worked up a 2e Dogs of the Forgotten Realms for my campaign...I should update that to 3e...
hunter1828
I had worked up a 2e Dogs of the Forgotten Realms for my campaign...I should update that to 3e...
hunter1828
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