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Why Aren't Designers Using The GUMSHOE System?

I was re-reading Night’s Black Agents by Kenneth Hite and Pelgrane Press for a review for this site, when I was stopped in my reading by what I thought was an important question (which I ask in the headline). Why aren’t more designers making games around the Gumshoe system created by Robin Laws? Robin Laws is a very smart man who thinks a lot about role-playing games. Now, I don’t always agree with where his lines of reasoning take him, as a designer, but that doesn’t take away from the man’s brilliance. I will admit that I wasn’t as impressed with the Gumshoe system at first blush, but as I have put more experience with the system under my belt, that has changed and my appreciation for what Laws did in the rules has grown.


I was re-reading Night’s Black Agents by Kenneth Hite and Pelgrane Press for a review for this site, when I was stopped in my reading by what I thought was an important question (which I ask in the headline). Why aren’t more designers making games around the Gumshoe system created by Robin Laws? Robin Laws is a very smart man who thinks a lot about role-playing games. Now, I don’t always agree with where his lines of reasoning take him, as a designer, but that doesn’t take away from the man’s brilliance. I will admit that I wasn’t as impressed with the Gumshoe system at first blush, but as I have put more experience with the system under my belt, that has changed and my appreciation for what Laws did in the rules has grown.

The concept at the heart of Gumshoe is one that has bothered me in a lot of fantasy games that I have run or played over my many years of gaming. That simple phrase: “I search the room.” Forgive my French, but the one thing that I dislike most about RPGs is the tendency towards “pixelbitching.” For those who may not be familiar with this term, it basically applies to having to state that you’re searching every inch of a room and looking out for cracks, crevices and any weirdly discolored patches that you may encounter in the flickering torchlight. It also refers to those “locks” that are pointless mini-puzzle games that require you to figure out the right combination of up-down-up that will unlock a door, or activate device. I hate those things.

One of the central concepts of a Gumshoe game is to get rid of that idea, and let you get to the meat of the scenario at hand. In game design in the 90s, we saw a rise of role-playing games with highly detailed skill systems. Pages and pages and pages of skills, with specialties and sub-skills all detailed. One of the high points of this style of game design would probably be GURPS from Steve Jackson Games. Don’t get me wrong, this isn’t bashing that style of design. I played the heck out of games like GURPS in the 90s. Just about everything that I wanted to play was ported into GURPS via the multitude of supplements that the system had. The problem arose with this school of design in that, while you were still assumed to be creating highly competent characters (at the higher point totals for GURPS characters, at least), the way that the skill systems worked your “highly competent” characters always had a non-trivial chance of failure when a player attempted to do anything.


As games touting their “realism” became more and more prevalent in the 80s and 90s, this trend for designing skills followed. All of those years of characters trying to do something cool, and instead doing something disappointing. You see this idea made fun of in various D&D memes around the internet, and I think that game design is finally getting around to fixing this idea. Gumshoe isn’t the only one doing this, not by far, but it is one of the only systems that is putting “fixing” investigation in RPGs in the center of the design.

But Gumshoe doesn’t catch the imagination of game designers in the same that Fate or Apocalypse World seems to be doing. I’m not saying that Gumshoe is better than either of those systems, in fact I’m supposed to by playing my first Powered By The Apocalypse game next month. There are always going to be game systems that catch on with designers, and those that get left behind. Gumshoe seems to have a devoted following, and a number of successful games, including the earlier mentioned Night’s Black Agents and Trail of Cthulhu among them. Pelgrane Press has a growing number of Gumshoe powered games, but for a system that has been released under both the OGL and a Creative Commons license it just surprises me that we don’t see more designers chewing on this system for their own worlds, like we do with D20, Fate or Apocalypse World (or any other number of free-to-use game systems out there).
Maybe Pelgrane Press is doing such a good job with their games that designers don’t need to remake the wheel. I know that there was talk of a Ars Magica/Gumshoe mashup at Atlas Games at one point, but I haven’t seen anything about that in a while.

At this point, you’re probably wondering one of two things, maybe even both. First, why does it matter what systems people use? Second, why is Gumshoe so cool?


The first question has a simple answer for me, and it lies in why I started writing for this site. Diversity in games is always a good thing. I like the idea of having a toolbox of different games, so that I can use the game, or system, that works best with what I want to do. Yes, I can just get a high level of system mastery with one game and use it for everything that I want, but that isn’t really how I roll. You get a different feel for a fantasy world when playing D&D, or when playing Stormbringer, and I like that. I want a game to reflect a world, and I want a world to be a good fit for how the mechanics of a game works. When I play a pulp game with Fate, and one with Troll Lord Games’ wonderful Amazing Adventures, the characters have different feels to them, and how they can interact with their worlds are different. Sometimes those differences are what I am looking for when I run, or play, a game.

Now, why do I like Gumshoe is a more complicated question to answer.

First off, it gets rid of the idea that a competent character has a non-zero chance of failure. That’s a HUGE idea, when you look at the stream of design that hit its height in the 90s (and still shows up at times in more contemporary game designs). If you look at role-playing games from the idea that they are supposed to simulate what you see in the stories/movies/comics that we all read, this brings what happens in a game much closer to what we see in the fictions that we are trying to emulate.

One thing, the “zero to hero” games, which cover a lot of the level-based games out there, most of which draw upon some strain of D&D as their influence, are not a counter argument to why there should be a “whiff” factor in RPG design. You can argue many things about the “heroic journey” of these games, but mostly the idea of them is that your character is on the journey to get to be that competent character. Using a first level D&D character to refute Sherlock Holmes or Tony Stark (sometimes they’re even the same person) isn’t proof that competent characters shouldn’t be doing competent things. It just means that different characters should be able to do different things.

I think that our recent Classic Traveller game would have been more interesting for the players if the game had been designed like Gumshoe. Too many times the momentum of our game was interrupted because a character who should have been able to do some sort of action couldn’t. Definitely not a slam on old school game designs. In most other aspects, the design of Classic Traveller is a hallmark of how simple and elegant older school game mechanics can be. If your idea of fun is overcoming adversity through fumbled dice rolls, then the task resolution of Classic Traveller will be your thing. I just think that, in the case of our group, this held us back in some ways.

So, again, what makes Gumshoe so great? I keep talking about where other games fall down. In a Gumshoe game, characters have what are called Investigative Abilities. But, what does this mean? At the core, the Investigative Abilities in a Gumshoe game let you get to the heart of the matter, because getting a piece of necessary information shouldn’t be dependent on a dice roll. Now, there are still contingencies for getting this information: your character has to be one the scene, they have to have a relevant ability and they have to tell the GM of the game that they are using it. In Night’s Black Agents an example of this is “I use Chemistry to test the blood for silver.” Obviously the character has an important reason to ask this question (perhaps it is a way for people to protect themselves from vampiric attacks, by dousing themselves with silver), and the next step of the characters (and the story) probably hinges on the results. In a game where there are non-zero chances of success, time can be wasted in a game session in rolling the results of this over and over to figure out if the answer given to a character is correct or not. What Gumshoe posits is that, if a character is a chemist, and demonstrates competency in their Chemistry ability, time shouldn’t be wasted in rolling until you get a high enough of a result to be able to tell if the GM is telling the truth or not.

This idea also assumes something important: a role-playing game isn’t a competition between the GM and the players. If the information is important to the story, and the characters have the relevant knowledge, don’t waste time in the reveal. While I’m sure that some gamers have fun with those hours spent in a chemistry lab testing, and retesting blood samples, others would have much more fun getting past the blood tests and getting to the point where they get to fight vampires. I know that I would.

But all of this brings me back to my initial point of this piece. Why aren’t more designers using the Gumshoe rules for their games? Maybe they just aren’t as familiar with the rules, which is entirely possible. But becoming more familiar with these rules is why I wrote over a thousand words for this piece. It does mean that I will, hopefully, have to explain less in my review for Night’s Black Agents, but that is really only secondary. What we see often in gaming writing is people writing what they know, talking about the games that they know and figuring out how to make them fit into other situations. Sometimes, instead of talking about how a screwdriver can be used in different situations, we should talk about why a pair of pliers are also useful.
 

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gribble

Explorer
IMO: experts having a chance of failure at something that others couldn't reasonably even attempt isn't actually a good model of reality. For example - I'm a software developer by trade. I can do things that I literally would have zero (i.e.: not even a miniscule) chance of failing at, that most people I know outside of the field couldn't even attempt. If there is a good reason why I might fail (e.g.: outside forces working against me), then Gumshoe handles that scenario too. I'm pretty sure that is generally applicable across medical and other fields as well. Certainly I can think of lots of other examples like the history buff who recalls without fail the exact date of a particular event they are familiar with whereas I'd struggle to place the year, or the architecture student who identifies with 100% accuracy the style and time period of a building I look at and think "that's got three stories and a roof".

But that's kind of beside the point, which I think a lot of these posts are missing. If you want a game that simulates that kind of "reality" (and I use that term loosely), by assuming that every PC has a chance at failing at everything, then Gumshoe isn't for you. Alternatively, if you want something completely freeform, where everyone describes down to the nth degree exactly the actions they're taking, and the GM just narrates results without ever rolling dice, Gumshoe isn't for you. But if you want a game that emulates the source material very well, and the abilities of your character (it's important to distinguish this from the abilities of the player and the things they might ask) have a direct impact on the success (or not) in uncovering clues, then it might be the game for you.

It isn't freeform or dependent on you having to perfectly describe what your character is doing to succeed, it has a tight and elegant set of mechanics behind it which are tailor-made for the investigative genre and don't have to be shoehorned or modified to work.

So to answer an earlier question - would I recommend it for standard dungeon crawling D&D? No, I wouldn't. Perhaps for something like an Eberron adventure which chronicled the stories of a fantasy private eye/investigator, that what certainly wouldn't be your typical dungeon crawling D&D experience!
 

darjr

I crit!
GUMSHOE in no way, shape, or form, guarantees that the characters will work out the mystery. It merely gives confidence they'll find all the clues - figuring out what they mean, and taking the right action in response, is not guaranteed.

I don't think it even does that. The players skill is involved here. They still need to figure out the right skill to use at the right time and right place. The players need to engineer that. It's still a game with a chance that they won't find that clue, but this time it's not because of a failed roll after they've done everything else right.

GUMSHOE doesn't hold your hand. As a player you need to engage and work the investigation.

That was always my blockage with GUMSHOE. I had to get that clue by four.

I live for the extemporaneous actions of the players, and in other games a failed roll can lead to all kinds of fun and wacky player actions and schemes.

So in a non GUMSHOE game the players would need to find some other way into the dungeon after they failed to find the key to the portcullis or unlock it, either break it or search for another entrance or wait in ambush for someone with a key. Sure, the thief could have picked that lock, but they failed. If they want in they'll have to work the problem. Shoot, maybe they'll find a catapult and build a parachute, good luck. I LOVE that stuff.

The issue may be that the thief may have spent months with the designers of the lock and the smith's that forged it and even bribed the gatekeeper for a look at the keys to get a better idea of how to pick the lock. Then the failed roll can kill a mood. But in a D&D game, for instance, the players can and do resort to violence to get in. That probably isn't in the theme of a noir investigative game. There the options may be much more limited and maybe should be.

GUMSHOE has an expectation that the players will do the work to find that clue before the test. It's part of the investigation theme after all. Not ambushing the police officer who has a key, or resorting to explosives, or a wrecking ball. So the fun happens up front in GUMSHOE, even the extemporaneous fun, and whats more is it tends to drive that up front game play in the theme of a contemplative careful investigation.

In a long winded way I agree with what Umbran said earlier.
 

werecorpse

Adventurer
The main issue with the approach you outlined, is that it pretty much eliminates niche protection. If you set the DC too low (such as in the DC 0 examples you give), then any player can find the important clue tied to (for example) a Religion check, making the cleric feel like he is superfluous in an area where he should shine. Set it high enough so that characters other than the cleric will have a hard time discovering it, and once again you'll have a (perhaps low, but certainly non-zero) chance the cleric will fail and the plot will stall. Sure you can introduce house rules, like requiring training in the relevant skill (and although commonly used, this has been a house rule in the last couple of editions of D&D) but then you can no longer claim "D&D handles this already".

My point wasn't that other, unmodified game systems already handle this but that with a minor modification they can. Therefore my view is that rather than play a whole different system just to gain the benefits that can be gained by just a minor modification to your current system make the minor modification. In your knowledge religion example just make it a trained only roll.

You seem to have missed my point about making DC 0 the discovery of the most basic stuff needed to proceed with the plot but higher DC's give extra fruit or avoid negative repercussions. If the characters are meant to understand that if they say the religious incantation they can go through the secret trapdoor into the lower dungeon make the chance of finding the trapdoor and the incantation 100% - maybe the knowledge that there is probably a vampires lair below only 70% on the religious knowledge and the chance of not waking the skeletal guardians only 40% on the find secret trapdoor. Therefore you get both the ability to proceed with the adventure no matter what your skills success rate but the advantage of getting something extra if you roll well.

dont get me wrong I am not trying to dismiss this advice as prosaic. It's great and for many systems was missing (call of Cthulhu was/is a classic for having a chance to miss the vital clue- for me now it's easy enough to make the stated spot or library research chance the chance you find it quickly and quietly, anything higher and you took extra time, alerted someone or the like ). But for me the investigative system can be used easily enough in other systems (yes, with some house ruling).
 

darjr

I crit!
I think there is more to it than that. It isn't just the automatic success that makes GUMSHOE. Though I recognize that it was the main part of Mr. Laws epiphany. The system is designed to encourage the players to do investigative work before when they traditionally would have done the test.

Though I'm no GUMSHOE expert.

I do agree that many of those things could be incorporated into other games.
 

Ghal Maraz

Adventurer
Thanks for the article.

Could someone list the settings which already use GUMSHOE?

Are there any non-modern, non-investigative settings which use GUMSHOE?

This may sound like a odd question, but could GUMSHOE be used to run an entire campaign in the D&D Multiverse or Golarion...a campaign which included the usual fantasy tropes of dungeon-delving?


So, as of now, the GUMSHOE games from Pelgrane Press are:

- The Esoterrorists, now in 2nd edition, which is the original GUMSHOE game; it does world conspiracy, esoteric mistery, arcane horror, X-Files mash-up where players are secret (anti-)conspiracy investigators fighting belief-horrors-made-real by conspiracy theorists worldwide;
- Fear Itself, a personal horror game of world madness ideal for no-survivor one-shots or longer campaigns delving into the underling fictional mythology;
- Trail of Cthulhu, now heading towards 2nd edition (AFAIK), written by Cthulhu (and all-around) scholar Kenneth Hite, the now archetypal Mythos investigation game, which somehow also helped influence the rules revision of Call of Cthulhu 7th edition; it can be played both Pulp-style (more action-oriented) and Purist style;
- Mutant City Blues, wherein players are super-powered law-enforcers specialised in mutants' crimes, with the game offering both the procedural and the action aspects;
- Ashen Stars, where PCs are investigative freebooters in a sci-fi setting, with the games centering around mistery, ships encounters, ship maintenance and veering a lot towards a Star Trek-style kind of mistery resolution;
- Night's Black Agents, an occult spy games of elite secret agents battling against the international conspiracy of vampires' hidden agendas and cobweb;
- Lorefinder (which is what you are really asking for!), which adapts the high-fantasy theme and mechanics of Pathfinder to a more investigative approach, in a licensed rule crossover between the d20 system and the GUMSHOE system;
- the Kickstartered TimeWatch, detailing the time-preserving missions of a specialised chrono-police moving around time and space to keep reality real (or something like that);
- the announced Tales of the Quaesitores (working title), a GUMSHOE approach to the world of Ars Magica, where players are (often magic-weaving) investigators of Hermetic crimes in the magical Europe of the Middle-Age;
- the upcoming The Fall of Delta Green, set in the Delta Green fictional/RPG world, focusing his angle on the years during which the 'official' Delta Green undercover operation was dismantled, following a series of scandals and exposures (Delta Green is a black-ops anti-Mythos government agency, which later goes 'rogue’, in the years after this game).

These are/will be all Pelgrane Press games, except (I guess) the Ars Magica one, which I infer will be an Atlas Games product.

it must be noted that the GUMSHOE games bolster not only the ad-hoc investigative system that gives the line his name, but also an impressive lineup of games designers extraordinaire and some award-winning supplements, like Bookhounds of London for Trail of Cthulhu and The Zalozhniy Quartet and The Dracula Dossier for Night's Black Agents.
 
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delericho

Legend
Why Aren't Designers Using The GUMSHOE System?

The concept at the heart of Gumshoe is one that has bothered me in a lot of fantasy games that I have run or played over my many years of gaming. That simple phrase: “I search the room.” Forgive my French, but the one thing that I dislike most about RPGs is the tendency towards “pixelbitching.”

Here's a question: do I really need an entire game system just to avoid pixelbitching?

I've played GUMSHOE. I do like the game. But the major thing the system offers is a solution to a problem I just don't have, which means that the system itself isn't a draw. I'll happily play "Trail of Cthulhu", or "Night's Black Agents", or whatever else because I'm interested in those games, but I won't seek out GUMSHOE simply on its own merits.
 

Desh-Rae-Halra

Explorer
I like the Gumshoe system overall because it allows narration of who discovers the clues on the team. I cant tell you how many times in other games the party has come to a locked door or have some arcana riddle and since no one can roll DC 20, I guess we should just leave, or just make the player roll over and over until they get it (waste of time and pulls away from game immersion).

My biggest thing is logically dumb, I know this, but I just wish I was rolling more dice.
All you ever roll is a standard d6 in GUMSHOE. That's half of what you roll in a game of Monopoly. I like rolling dice in my RPG. Even only using 4 in FATE seems like an improvement....now to be clear, I dont want to be rolliing 36 d6 like in Warhammer for an attack, but when only using a d6, I feel like I might as well just draw out paper chits from a hat (old skool style!) or just flip a coin.
(PS I know I just jumped gaming systems into boardgames with Warhammer and Monopoly, but the idea was that my resistance is because of the single die rolling, and there is a spectrum that I personally enjoy about that).
 

Ghal Maraz

Adventurer
I should add to my previous post:

There is 'Against the Unknown', which is the first 3rd-party GUMSHOE hack (by Porcupine Publishing), and a 'streamlined' one at it, being a game of veteran occult detectives.

Evil Hat has quite some time ago announced two games:
- Revengers should be quite a heavy hack of the system, for a game centered around mistery-solving ghost detectives;
-Bubblegumshoe should be the teenaged detectives, Veronica Mars GUMSHOE game.


Also, Laws and Hite made reference to an upcoming 1v1 GUMSHOE game, yet undisclosed and untitled.
 
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