Don’t reinvent the wheel, being well versed in different RPGs

[hawkeyefan]

Probably because I don’t understand Blades in the Dark that well. And the podcasts plays I heard of it used flashbacks a lot.

If heists are not the main thrust of the game then I really would like to know the structure of games it supports (again I don’t know.)

And excuse me if I am wrong but I would believe anyone examining a game with evil or morally grey characters would be concerned about murderous excess at the cost of story cohesion.

A few comments in response to some of your statements. I can understand why you make some of the comments you made, but I want to offer some counterpoints from my experiences with the game.

“Heists” are a part of play… but how much will really depend on what kind of crew the players choose to play, and what they tend to focus on with their characters. One crew type is “Shadows” which is a pretty classic group of thieves or spies. They will likely perform a lot of heists. But a crew of Bravos (basically hired muscle) will not likely perform many heists. They’ll tend to perform a lit of assaults. Assassins will likely murder targets. And so on. The focus of any given Score (job or mission) will vary quite a bit, and isn’t really much more limited than many other games.

Flashbacks are a part of play, but their frequency and importance will vary from group to group. I’ve played with groups who used them often, and I’ve played with groups who rarely used them. It’s a matter of preference and comfort. I think the mechanic serves to reinforce the idea that the PCs are capable criminals who are likely to expect or anticipate the kinds of things that folks like us in the modern mundane world would overlook… and in that regard I think they’re great. They also suit crime fiction of thre sort that Blades is trying to emulate. But they aren’t essential to play and can be removed if one wanted to do so.

As for the morality of the characters… almost paradoxically, morality has mattered in my games of Blades far more than in most D&D games I’ve played. I mean… most D&D games can be summed up pretty well with alignments. This character’s Lawful Good, so everyone knows what that means. From time to time a character may struggle with their alignment a bit… but even that tends to be pretty simplistic. I mean… the idea that you can boil the spectrum of human behavior down to nine categories is inherently simplistic.

So the setting is pretty bleak. Just being a proper citizen… working a job and keeping your nose clean… is basically presented as a sucker’s bet. The society is rigged and such people are resources to be used up and spent by others. So crime is one of the only ways to avoid that fate. However, that doesn’t mean that every criminal is a murderous psychopath. Some might be, yes. Others might be heroes of the people… criminals in the same sense as Robin Hood or Batman. Ot any number of other examples of heroes or anti-heroes we can come up with. The players have to actually consider how far their characters are willing to go to get what they want.

The setting also helps reinforce this in ways. One such was is that whenever someone dies in Duskvol, the Spirit Bells sound and the Spirit Wardens are dispatched to collect the ghost that will soon form. This means that every death attracts a lot of attention… so the players are encouraged to avoid killing, especially when it’s not necessary. This setting detail is an interesting bit of worldbuilding… but like the best worldbuilding, it also serves a game purpose. It forces the players to consider these decisions. It helps define the characters as we play. It avoids labeling them at the start with a two word phrase that sums up the entirety of their morality.

Has there ever been a D&D campaign where such thought was given to every single instance of killing by a PC? I doubt it… most D&D campaigns are filled with endless slaughter (deserves or not).

Just a few thoughts in response! Happy to answer any questions or get more specific with examples.

 

[Joshua Randall]

One definitely should not “learn” games from message board arguments about them.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Probably because I don’t understand Blades in the Dark that well. And the podcasts plays I heard of it used flashbacks a lot.

If heists are not the main thrust of the game then I really would like to know the structure of games it supports (again I don’t know.)

And excuse me if I am wrong but I would believe anyone examining a game with evil or morally grey characters would be concerned about murderous excess at the cost of story cohesion.

There's no incentive to simply wander around killing everything. The game centers on your 'crew' and its relationship to other factions (not exclusively, but this is a major theme). Wandering around murdering everything will simply get you annihilated. In that sense BitD is much more realistic than most trad D&D I've played. You are part of a society, and if you don't act within your space within that society, it will get rid of you.

The game doesn't center on 'heists'. You can do something like a heist, yes, but scores are not heists, they're 'action time', a focused sort of mission part of play where the PCs do stuff related to their themes and interests with a specific goal and encountering danger. Your crew could be assassins, thieves, dealers, smugglers, revolutionaries, etc. Basically the crew is always on the 'wrong side of the tracks', and thus considered 'criminals', but you have wide latitude in terms of what that means. It is also pretty flexible, and crews seem to IME evolve or grow into a unique form.

As for flashbacks, you can use them as much as you want, but IME they weren't something that was needed constantly. First of all, you have the ability to pull different things out of your 'gear' without really needing a flashback. Much of the time you can use generic items you own "yeah, I did bring the crowbar." Sometimes you do a flashback, "Oh, after we learned about the guardian spirits (during info gathering before the score) we create a special ward against them." I've no idea what is 'wrong' with that, it is simply highlighting that your characters are darn good at what they do.

Obviously BitD is a specific game, intended to provide a certain kind of play in a certain genre and milieu. Nevertheless this system has seen a pretty good amount of adaptation, though most of the ones I've seen parallel BitD to a degree (there's a group, and that group is outside the normal power structure, and there are complex allegiances with other groups/factions/powers). I'm sure someone can point out games which break this mold, I'm no great expert. It is a very solid game, and the position/effect resolution system is pretty sweet in play.

 

[rhythmsoundmotion]

A few comments in response to some of your statements. I can understand why you make some of the comments you made, but I want to offer some counterpoints from my experiences with the game.

“Heists” are a part of play… but how much will really depend on what kind of crew the players choose to play, and what they tend to focus on with their characters. One crew type is “Shadows” which is a pretty classic group of thieves or spies. They will likely perform a lot of heists. But a crew of Bravos (basically hired muscle) will not likely perform many heists. They’ll tend to perform a lit of assaults. Assassins will likely murder targets. And so on. The focus of any given Score (job or mission) will vary quite a bit, and isn’t really much more limited than many other games.

Flashbacks are a part of play, but their frequency and importance will vary from group to group. I’ve played with groups who used them often, and I’ve played with groups who rarely used them. It’s a matter of preference and comfort. I think the mechanic serves to reinforce the idea that the PCs are capable criminals who are likely to expect or anticipate the kinds of things that folks like us in the modern mundane world would overlook… and in that regard I think they’re great. They also suit crime fiction of thre sort that Blades is trying to emulate. But they aren’t essential to play and can be removed if one wanted to do so.

As for the morality of the characters… almost paradoxically, morality has mattered in my games of Blades far more than in most D&D games I’ve played. I mean… most D&D games can be summed up pretty well with alignments. This character’s Lawful Good, so everyone knows what that means. From time to time a character may struggle with their alignment a bit… but even that tends to be pretty simplistic. I mean… the idea that you can boil the spectrum of human behavior down to nine categories is inherently simplistic.

So the setting is pretty bleak. Just being a proper citizen… working a job and keeping your nose clean… is basically presented as a sucker’s bet. The society is rigged and such people are resources to be used up and spent by others. So crime is one of the only ways to avoid that fate. However, that doesn’t mean that every criminal is a murderous psychopath. Some might be, yes. Others might be heroes of the people… criminals in the same sense as Robin Hood or Batman. Ot any number of other examples of heroes or anti-heroes we can come up with. The players have to actually consider how far their characters are willing to go to get what they want.

The setting also helps reinforce this in ways. One such was is that whenever someone dies in Duskvol, the Spirit Bells sound and the Spirit Wardens are dispatched to collect the ghost that will soon form. This means that every death attracts a lot of attention… so the players are encouraged to avoid killing, especially when it’s not necessary. This setting detail is an interesting bit of worldbuilding… but like the best worldbuilding, it also serves a game purpose. It forces the players to consider these decisions. It helps define the characters as we play. It avoids labeling them at the start with a two word phrase that sums up the entirety of their morality.

Has there ever been a D&D campaign where such thought was given to every single instance of killing by a PC? I doubt it… most D&D campaigns are filled with endless slaughter (deserves or not).

Just a few thoughts in response! Happy to answer any questions or get more specific with examples.

The player types makes more sense when I think of Runners from Shadowrun. I don’t know why I was not making that connection before.

 

[hawkeyefan]

The player types makes more sense when I think of Runners from Shadowrun. I don’t know why I was not making that connection before.

Yeah, criminals in Duskvol run the gamut. You can have Bravos who work for the labor unions and fight back against the corrupt class system and the union-breaking Bluecoats. Or you can have a thief who steals from awful people. Or you can have a cultist who sacrifices people to their lost god. It really can be anything you want.

The society is so corrupt that the PCs are very often messing with people who are far worse than they are. Definitely not always, but often. That's one of the things that makes the setting work so well and makes the game so fun.

The last PC I played was a minor noble who basically got involved in crime because he was a thrill seeker and an adrenaline junkie. He was a perpetual student in the university, and didn't really want to move on in his life. He didn't want the obligations that his family and station would bring. He got in with our crew of smugglers moving contraband into the city. Our crew became sorts of heroes of the people by siding with the unions and so on. He would kill if he had to or if the person particularly deserved it, but he never harmed anyone innocent. He often put himself at great risk to save others, especially innocent bystanders put at risk because of the crew's shenanigans.

After some time, he started realizing the drawbacks of being a criminal... the constant danger and violence. It took its toll on him. He was then discovered as a criminal by his family and was cut off from them. Eventually, he had to willingly choose to take on the obligation of his lineage to save his family, which he did, and then the crew wound up angling for him to get on the city council, where he hoped to try and do some amount of good in the messed-up structure of Duskvol.

That's where we ended the game. He was a much more well realized character who changed and grew much more than most of the D&D characters I've had over the years.

 

[rhythmsoundmotion]

I know very little about Trophy Gold but I want to know more.
-It is related to Cthulhu Dark, and Trophy Dark -Trophy Dark is doomed characters
-Trophy Gold works well with OSR adventures

-What is the player agency versus GM guidance balance like?
-What is the separation of the player knowledge versus the character knowledge like?
-How do characters advance in abilities through play?

 

[rhythmsoundmotion]

Blades in the Dark
-What kind of horror tropes does the setting embrace?
-What post apocalyptic tropes?
-What twisted and corrupt society tropes?
-Does it embrace any revolution or overthrow oppression tropes?

 

[Joshua Randall]

Blades in the Dark
-What kind of horror tropes does the setting embrace?

There are ghosts and vampires and hollowed out husks that used to be people. There is soul-magic. Horror is so commonplace it has become less sanity-blasting Call of Cthulhu horror, and more like a (probably) non-comedic Ghostbusters type of horror.

-What post apocalyptic tropes?

The world is completely screwed because of a magical cataclysm long ago. You're trapped in the city by a magical barrier against the outside ghosts and other horrors, a result of the cataclysm.
The sun is dead. Like, literally: there is no sun.

-What twisted and corrupt society tropes?

All of them. Everyone is corrupt.

-Does it embrace any revolution or overthrow oppression tropes?

In the base book? Not really. You could conceptually "rebel" but it would be to replace the corrupt power structure with your own, criminal power structure.

A game like Scum & Villainy (the sci-fi BITD offshoot) lets you specifically play as a crew that is the "good" rebels trying to make things better.

 

[Gorgon Zee]

You must read a lot. If you don't understand and appreciate good writing, your writing will be bad.

I disagree.

Other people you disagree with:

“If you want to be a writer, you must do two things above all others: read a lot and write a lot. There’s no way around these two things that I’m aware of, no shortcut.” - -- Stephen King

“The only way anybody ever learns to write well is by trying to write well. This usually begins by reading good writing by other people, and writing very badly by yourself, for a long time.” -- Ursula K. Le Guin

“Read, read, read everything – trash, classics, good and bad, and see how they do it. Just like a carpenter who works as an apprentice and studies the master. Read! You’ll absorb it. Then write. If it is good, you’ll find out. If it’s not, throw it out the window.” -- William Faulkner

“The greatest part of a writer’s time is spent in reading, in order to write: a man will turn over half a library to make one book.” -- Samuel Johnson

 

[Manbearcat]

Blades in the Dark is a slippery system for me, listening to podcast plays of it and reading reviews leave me with tons of questions. A criminal player character campaign worries me as it seems the territory of self important murder hobo style play (though I assume Blades in the Dark prevents or limits this somehow?)

You've already got several responses (some from people I've GMed Blades games for) regarding the above which you've interacted with, so I don't know I can do much more work here to elaborate on the points expressed. Here is what I'll say regarding what I've bolded of your text above. These game engine levers, procedures, principles, and agenda pieces work in concert to basically ensure very round characters whose animating dramatic needs are diverse and generating an evolution and arc to PCs in Blades:

* GM Goal: Play to find out what happens. Don’t steer the game toward certain outcomesor events. Be curious!

This tells the GM to be curious about the characters, about the situations they're in, about the collisions of characters and conflicting elements, and about the cascading forward momentum.

* GM Actions: (i) Ask establishing and provocative questions of the characters through their players and the game's engine. (ii) Provide opportunities & follow the player’s lead.

These procedures ensure that "where the action lies" or "what the nexus of play is" is constantly a collaborative affair and constantly updated to ensure "same-pagedness." This isn't just a freeform procedure. The game engine's archetecture, mechanical levers, and advancement scheme works in concert to facilitate it.

* GM Principles & Best Practices:

(i) Be a fan of the PCs: Be interested in the characters and excited about their victories.

(ii) Let everything flow from the fiction: Respect the cascading situation-state. Do not generate pre-fabricated story which subverts that emergent cascade. Respect it and follow the characters as they emerge, evolve, unravel, resolve.

These two things above follow directly from and to (iii) GM Best Practices of Lead an Interesting Conversation (prompt players and be prompted by them), (iv) Don't Block (there is always a way to entertain goals and action declarations...find it...negotiate it...resolve it via system), (v) Keep the Metachannel Open, (vi) Play (Crew & PC) Goal-Forward (again, centering PC motivations as the nexus of play which generates each moment and, ultimately, trajectory).

* Player Best Practices:

(i) Go into Danger & Fall in Love With Trouble + Don't Talk Yourself Out of Fun: The system makes your character extremely robust and resilient so ATTACK, DAMNIT. There is no reason to turtle. It sucks and you don't need to.

(ii) Take Responsibility: You want interesting things to happen? You want compelling characters? Say interesting things and use the system's beefy means to shape play.

(iii) Build Your Character Through Play: Be a curious explorer of your character. Do not bring an unmalleable, already resolved conception of character into play with an intent for the fiction to hew to that. Follow the character generation process. Use it to bring dramatic needs, anchoring relations, and an interesting, primordial sketch of a character. Use this, an interesting conversation, and system to animate play with propulsive elements, allowing discovery of "who this person is" in the course of play.

* Mechanical Levers and Advancement: You've got a gang of individual gears & levers + incentives & tradeoffs around various currencies + an interlocking mechanical architecture which all work in concert to (i) inform your goals, (ii) to generate worthy/interesting adversaries and opportunities, (iii) to fill out play and pressurize it with compelling decision-points around micro-goals/macro-goals/individual relationships/social networks, (iv) to animate spiraling conflicts which is that essential "spinning plates" feel and cascading situation-state that is a rigorous game of Blades in the Dark.