Why aren't paladins liked?

[ThoughtBubble]

I'm going to stand up here and say that if the character is going to do something that goes against his code, then he is going to suffer the consequences. If a player doesn't like having repercussions for his actions, then (1) he's playing the wrong class, and (2) he's perhaps in the wrong group. I have mentioned this to the player and he's happy with the group, although he has a couple minor gripes with my DMing style. but the rest of the group is very happy.

I agree. In fact, I feel that everyone should have to deal with re-precussions with their actions. With one caviat. And that's that consiquences are within the scope of the campaign's feel.

Throughout that paticular campaign the other players were often telling me that they felt his actions and words were not appropriate to a Paladin, and even suggested that he lose his powers on a couple occasions. I did not strip him of them at those times but I did suggest to him out of game that he change his attitude.

And here's why I can agree with your choice of actions. This isn't his first deviation, so it's not like you're coming down on him like a ton of bricks, or out to screw him. It's just his unpaladinishness making him unpaladinish.

I don't see why. I don't go out of my way to screw the players, but as I have said, they need to accept consequences. Its not a trust issue, its a roleplaying issue.

Because if you hit someone hard as the first level of consiquence, they're likely to just leave the situation entirely. So, instead of trying to play more carefully and shape up, they just stop playing a paladin.

And the trust issue is only an outcome of the consiquences of roleplaying, not a cause. But, in my expierence, it's relatively easy to start assuming that any action will meet with horrendous consiquences if it happens a couple of times in a row. So, under normal circumstances, I'm saying "Don't come down like a ton of bricks too many times in a row." The problem is that the paladin situation of losing all abilities all at once is a fairly strong hit and a fairly radical one (in terms of both numerical and role-play/character development) I tend to use the kid gloves and do things by baby steps. It gives my players enough time to shape up.

 

[sword-dancer]

Sorry, but he was not right. He didn't open the tomb, he smashed it to get in. If he had opened it I wouldn't have done what I did, but he took a weapon to it.

Had they a key to open the door?
Which other obvious and certain possibilities to open the grave did they´ve?
Did he intentional something unpiety(right word) with the corpse of the saint?

At worst the pally goes a bit over the top, which isn`t really a violation of the code.
OTOH could you post it`s code ?

 

[Peskara]

I've always avoided playing paladins because their code limits/restricts your options so much that you are no longer role-playing you are playing a cliche'.

I have only gotten to play a paladin a couple of times, but I've found that the demands of faith and their law-abiding nature forces me to come up with more creative solutions to the problems they're presented with in-game. Of course I've never had to deal with a DM intent on screwing the paladins out of their powers or making life extra-difficult for them either so that may be why I have a more positive outlook on the class. That, and I find that level of faith and commitment mondo-cool.

 

[DragonLancer]

Had they a key to open the door?
Which other obvious and certain possibilities to open the grave did they´ve?
Did he intentional something unpiety(right word) with the corpse of the saint?

The obvious means of opening it was to just lift the lid. The party had no reason to assume that the tomb was trapped or unopenable.

 

[sword-dancer]

Then it was more than going a bit unpolite over the top, i could and would not disagree with your decision.

 

[Elf Witch]

Paladins used to be one of my favorite classes but not any longer I have found that nothing can disrupt a game faster than a paladin's sense of morale outrage.

There is another way of leading and trying to influnce people to do good besides threats to fellow party members if they don't see eye to eye with you. And that is lead by example. Show your fellow party members that doing good things has its own rewards.

My current character is a neutral sorcerer with a lot of necromantic (no play with dead) spells. Trapped in the abyss, outnumbered, with limited resources she made the decision to cast symbol of pain her only spell with an evil descriptor and one that had never been cast before the paladin had never seen her cast any spell with evil in it.

She wanted the spell which was cast on a rock to be able to be triggered in the path of the evil creatures chasing them to slow them down and give the party a chance to escape. Well the paladin did a spellcraft check to see what spell was being cast tried to dispel it and then even when the rest of the party did not have a problem with it refused to travel with the sorcerer unless she destroyed the item and when she gave in and mage handed it away from the party he told her if she tried to activate it he would slay her where she stood.

My character at that point made the decision to save herself and throw her lot in wth the devils who will be soon attacking the demons because as far as she can tell lawful evil is lot easier to deal with than lawful good.

 

[Grizpapa]

Kahuna Burger defines "arrogence"

actually, no, its that I don't AGREE with that,
or your poor attempt to summarize the arguments,

FYI #1: It's "it's" and not its.

Actually, it was pretty accurate in terms of the thread up to that point.
I will admit it was slightly more charged then I would have liked but I had had enough at that point and felt the need to post something. While I did originally intend to follow my post up with further explanation, I never got around to it as I had to leave to go on vacation.

Unfortunately, this thread has quickly gotten out of hand and I doubt I'll have enough time to spend to catch up after page five.

or with the assertion that the problems some people have with paladins are based on being misguided/misinformed.

Which time and again have been proven in this very thread.
Maybe it's just "your poor attempt" to read the other posts or to even grasp what the other people in the thread are writing.

And with that classic bit of arrogence and presumption, you have saved me the bother of reading the rest of your Kind Explaination.

FYI #2: It's "arrogance" and "Explanation" not "arrogence" and "Explaination".

While I did include a quote from your, aren't your the one being arrogant in assuming that the whole post was directed at you. Why yes, yes you are.

As far as you not reading the rest of the post, I could careless as long as someone else with a dissenting opinion read it.

So in summation:
You have proven that you did not bother to read the entire thread up to that point or you would have realized that the "you" was plural and not singular.

As such you have also proven that you and not I are the "arrogent" one but I already had that impression from other posts you've made on these boards.

You have also proven that you are "misinformed" when it comes to using "basic" spelling and "basic" grammer.

I have proven that I should have stated in plain English that the post was directed at not just you but to also the others with low opinions of paladins.

I have also proven that I am wasting my time dealing with someone who is beneath me, especially at this late hour.

With that I bid you good day.

 

[Chasmodai]

Paladins cramp my style? Hah. Who cares what they say. They wanna stop you from pickpocketing some merchant, they gotta see you first.

That's what I usually do when playing a CN rogue-type with a Paladin in the party. Tactics-wise, if the paladin wants to be difficult and not be... dubious in methodology, no skin off my nose. Trouble starts and I'm not even there anymore.

Besides, if a Paladin who wants to be the epitome of Good and all that is Noble refuses to do something shady (even if it is for the greater good) because it would violate some moral code of his... isn't really the epitome of Good and all that is Noble anymore.

I would like to play a Paladin one day. A Paladin who would challenge the 'code' if it argued with his own judgement of the greater good. A Paladin who probably wouldn't be a Paladin for very long.

 

[LordBOB]

Paladins are " Goody - to - shoes " MY FOOT!!!!! Paladins, in my opinion, are the backbone of the group. Sure other characters could replace the Paladin easily but they have some nice abilities.

1. " Lay on Hands" as well as the other healing spells that Paladins can obtain adventually. This makes the Paladin a self Healer so the cleric can worry about healing the others in the Party. Also the immunity to diseases is a nice thing.

2. The Lawful Good alignment is the only reason my entire group isnt in jail or dead right now. All they want to do to is steal and shot stuff, they end up pi.ss.ing of the NPC's and get close to being stabbed in the face. I am able to calm everyone down and things go smoothly for a while.

3. We have a fairly good AC and hitpoint so we are able to get in there and smash the enimies and let the shooters finish them off. This keeps everyone else out of harms way so they dont get as the fighters do.

4. Protection from evil. This power has saved me many times. My DM still hasnt learned that I am the only person that can truly stand up against some of the demons he throws at us. He makes them use natural attacks and they cant hurt me with their hands so I end up slaughtering them.


Other powers like detect evil and smite evil are also awesome. Personally I think they are better than the clerics ability to do them.

When my group wants to rob someone blind my DM either explains how it isnt against my code b/c they are evil or trying to kill us or something like that. Or I have a nice talk with a NPC while they are planning how to do it so i dont " Hear them" that way when they do it im off fighting something or saving someone, they get the job done and they dont explain how they got it. Dont ask Dont tell.

One thing I think the fighter/barbarian/Paladin needs is something to regenerate HP. I have a +2 Helm of regeneration. Gives me +2 AC and regains 1 HP a Minute. This way very little effort is required in restoring my HP. The only time i get healed is when we would be fighting immediatly.


Those who dont agree that Paladins are a necessity to the groups are a little wacko. But than again you will always have different opinions thna I do.

 

[Corinth]

Read your Schiller, folks.