D&D 3E/3.5 Why be a 3.5 fighter?

[pawsplay]

Alright, perhaps a CR 10 Eleven Headed Hydra is more appropriate?

A hydra is just going to be target practice. As the fighter can out-move the hydra, a group of fighters could take it down in, as I see the numbers, about six rounds, with almost zero risk. A solo fighter could take down the same hydra in some hideous number of rounds by kiting... I'm going to say about 24-30 rounds, because of the very high fast healing.

 

[Dandu]

I'm going to say about 24-30 rounds, because of the very high fast healing.

You do realize that a well build level 10 spellcaster could take it out in about 10 rounds max, right?

 

[Wyvernhand]

By 10 rounds, you mean 1 round, right? Assuming we are talking about metamagic use (not even metamagic ABUSE!).

Also, Gnomish Phantasmal Killa has a DC of ~14+7 (int) + 1 (racial) +1 (spell focus, you know...for Archmage)= 23

+12 fort save is a save on 12+, with a 19+ needed on the will save. Thats a hair north of a 50-50 shot of 1shotting it.

And Phantasmal Killer isn't even the BEST tactic. Just sayin.

With metamagic, Arcane Thesis (Scorching Ray) with Empower Spell and Split Ray at CL12 (10 levels, +2 for Arcane Thesis) is a 4th level spell. Thats 4 rays at 6d6 damage each for an average of 84. Follow that with a Quickened Scorching Ray (5th level spell) for another 12d6 (average 42). Assuming all hit (touch AC of 9) and average damage, thats 126 damage, a couple points north of an 11 headed hydra's 118 HP. Not great for scaling PAST that level, but if you knew 10th level was the highest you were gonna go, thats a pretty efficient damage machine right there...

 

[Nifft]

What is your countermeasure to the dragon flying in, snatching a fighter, flying off, breathing on him (no reflex save to avoid damage) and dropping him far away and far below?

The dragon can breathe underwater and has a +29 Grapple check, and it traditionally lives in a swamp.

What are the Fighter's defenses against simple drowning?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Dandu]

By 10 rounds, you mean 1 round, right? Assuming we are talking about metamagic use (not even metamagic ABUSE!).

Also, Gnomish Phantasmal Killa has a DC of ~14+7 (int) + 1 (racial) +1 (spell focus, you know...for Archmage)= 23

+12 fort save is a save on 11+, with a 19+ needed on the will save. Thats a hair south of a 50-50 shot of 1shotting it.

And Phantasmal Killer isn't even the BEST tactic. Just sayin.

The fort save on the 11 headed hydra is actually +11.

Also, I'm not sure how you're killing it in one round with normal metamagic.

 

[pawsplay]

You do realize that a well build level 10 spellcaster could take it out in about 10 rounds max, right?

Yes. It is of course patently obvious that different characters will excel at different challenges. Certainly, soloing a APL-1 melee monster is not exactly a kind benchmark for the fighter. Nonetheless, he perseveres. As I pointed out, even without caster support, a group of four such fighters can deal with the hydra easily.

The fighter, obviously, fares better than the wizard in the snatched-by-black dragon scenario.

 

[Nifft]

The fighter, obviously, fares better than the wizard in the snatched-by-black dragon scenario.

What's he got that's better than dimension door?

Heck, by level 12 even the Monk has access to dimension door.

 

[Dandu]

Certainly, soloing a APL-1 melee monster is not exactly a kind benchmark for the fighter.

What is, the ability to simply pass the challenge?

If that's the case, a team of commoners could do the exact same thing to the hydra.

Nonetheless, he perseveres. As I pointed out, even without caster support, a group of four such fighters can deal with the hydra easily.

It would seem to me that you're not powerful if it takes you 24-30 rounds to kill a single CR 10 monster, assuming the most favorable conditions on your part, since since you never factored in the effects of the Hydra's natural marsh environment. (You can gain cover for +8 to AC in a deep bog. Can go prone for an additional +4 vs ranged attacks)

 

[pawsplay]

What is your countermeasure to the dragon flying in, snatching a fighter, flying off, breathing on him (no reflex save to avoid damage) and dropping him far away and far below?

Although it's no picnic for the designated victim, it's not actually all that helpful to the dragon. The dragon gives up the benefits of obscuring mist by doing so, and gains, at best, lesser benefits from darkness, which is already not a game-changer in this scenario.

Per improved grab (which snatch is a special case of), it is certainly possible for the dragon for the dragon to move with the fighter. However, the dragon has a dilemma. It can grapple at -20, making the fighter grappled but not becoming grappled itself, allowing it to fly at full speed, but probably dropping the fighter in one round. Bite + breath weapon (no save) + 1d6 x 1d6 fall damage is actually not that impressive damage-wise for two rounds of actions. Alternatively, it can grapple, at its full bonus, which is 12 points in its favor, but means no Dex bonus to AC and half movement rate (to 75 feet), in addition to being able to make no further standard actions until it drops its cargo.

As a poor flyer, it can fly 75 feet per round, moving at an up angle of 45 degrees, giving it roughtly 30 feet of climb each round. At that rate, the dragon is going to have trouble getting away from the fighters. True, half the arrows will hit the designate victim instead of the dragon, but it's going to take a lot of damage. When it comes to the conclusion that the height it has achieved will finish off its now breathed upon, slightly feathered victim, it can drop him, whereupon it will begin to talk all of the damage from the arrows being fired at it on its return trip. It is fairly likely it can kill its chosen victim, but it would have to be very determined, as it would take a lot of damage and place itself at risk of being killed if it tried to repeat the performance. All that is assuming fairly open ground.

All of that assumes, of course, very unfavorable circumstances. If the fighter is a normal party, any number of simple countermeasures wille expose the dragon to fierce attack, and if the fighter is backed up by another party member with IPS, the curve will bend against the dragon significantly. It assumes also no such preparations as energy damage arrows or wands, as well; I don't think it's useful to assume great prescience when considering scenarios like this, but I think it's fair to acknowledge the fighter probably has at least some advantage not accounted for. The dragon, for its part, is a poor spellcaster.

Just as a technical point, Large black dragons are not eligible for Snatch, which requires Huge size. While it is possible that may have overstated the difficulty in this encounter, I am relatively sure there are other Huge creatures in that CR band that could perform similarly.

 

[Wyvernhand]

The fighter, obviously, fares better than the wizard in the snatched-by-black dragon scenario.

Conjourers (the most common flavor of specialist wizard due to the broad versatility of the school) have Immediate Magic (Abrupt Jaunt) which fixes the snatch problem very nicely. Assuming that is too specific, CMage has the spell Heart of Water, which lasts HOURS per level and can be discharged to produce a Freedom of Movement effect for 1 minute as an immediate action. In core only, Dimension Door is a 4th level spell that ONLY has a V component, which means you can cast it in a grapple with a relatively simple Concentration check. Dim Door out of range (what, 800ish feet), note that Spot checks impose a -1 penalty per 10 feet, and run like a SoB under the cover of your -80 cover.

I swear I'm not just a mindless wizard apologist, but there is a reason wizards are ranked as Tier 1. Versatility. Sure, you can build a fighter that can kill a dragon, but I can build 10 different wizards that can kill the same dragon with 10 different methods. 3 times per day. When you are reaching into a bag full of awesome, nearly everything you pull out of that bag is awesome.

Fighters have their uses. A well built fighter should have reasonable defenses (and I'm not talking about AC) and be able to deal a decent amount of damage in a short period of time. At high levels, his primary role is to provide a durable barrier between bad things and the controllers (read: casters or pseudocaster like Dragonfire Adepts) and kill the things the controllers control. When your wizard tells you to Power Attack, you ask "HOW MUCH?" If a summoned monster is serving the role better than you, you should really sit down and consider your effectiveness.