Why Classless?!?

[gamecat]

I like class. Even though I have no class, class based systems are the way to go. they are clearly defined, and unless you enjoy confusion, defined is good. "But my character is so nebulous, he doesnt fit into any class!" Simple solution: MULTICLASS! "But XP penalties suck!" simple solution: Rule 0 the penalties, and doesn't and self-respecting "Roleplayer"(as opposed to "Rollplayer") not care for numbers. RPGs w/o structured rules become cops and robbers, "Bang! I shot you!" "No you didn't" "Yes, I did" "No you didn't", ad infinitum.

Rantity Rantity Rant. Thanks for putting up with the Game Cat.

 

[Darkness]

Why classless? Easy - because it's much more flexible. And "defined" in the sense of "straightjacket" isn't really an advantage, you know...
(But regarding for nebulous characters - trust me, you can build a nebulous character just as easily in GURPS or Storyteller; these are hardly a problem of class-based systems. )

BTW, what inspired this rant? You are hardly ranting just for the heck of you, are you?

 

[Bonedagger]

gamecat
RPGs w/o structured rules become cops and robbers, "Bang! I shot you!" "No you didn't" "Yes, I did" "No you didn't", ad infinitum.

I don't think classless equal ruleless.

Classes are just one way to achieve some structure. You don't need them.

However. I don't see any problems with them in D&D.

 

[Psion]

Why classless? Easy - because it's much more flexible.

That's not necessarily a good thing. IME with "a la carte" systems, characters tend to fall into two categories:

1) Characters with patently illogical skill sets
2) Characters that could have easily been written up with a loose classed system.

Now I don't know about you, but I happily live without players making characters of type #1.

(But regarding for nebulous characters - trust me, you can build a nebulous character just as easily in GURPS or Storyteller; these are hardly a problem of class-based systems. )

What are you talking about? Nebulous characters are PRIMARILY a problem of classless systems.

P.S. While you're here, Darkness, can you move the d20 HP mechanics thread to house rules where it belongs? Thx.

 

[James McMurray]

Classless is useful in that it doesn't pidgeon hole you in peoples' minds. If someone asks you what class your character is, and you reply "Rogue" many of them will automatically assume you mean "Thief" even is you actually mean "Scout."

Also, being classless does not mean unstructured. Shadowrun is an example of a system that is classless but has structure.

As for making illogical characters, you can do that in a classed system as well. But as long as there is a reason for a charcter's class combo or skillset, logic doesn't really matter much.

Personally, I've played classless system (Shadowrun and Whitewolf) and I've played classed systems (All incarnations of D&D, Rolemaster) and it doesn't really matter. What matters is the story the players and GM tell using the rules.

 

[Psion]

As for making illogical characters, you can do that in a classed system as well. But as long as there is a reason for a charcter's class combo or skillset, logic doesn't really matter much.

When I say logical, I pretty much mean that there is a good reason for the character's skill set. All too often in a la carte systems, the character's skill sets seem rather ill-justified.

 

[James McMurray]

Care to give a for instance? Also, was the illogical nature of the skillset because the player couldn't think of a reason, or because there was no reason possible that could explain the skills? If its the former, the fault is with the player, not the system used.

 

[Zappo]

You know, I've just had an epiphany regarding White Wolf games.

In D&D, you have classes (in the mathematical sense) determined by the proprierty that all characters with similar abilities and powers belong to the same class.

In the WoD games, you have classes too which are just as restrictive, except that the proprierties defining them aren't about game mechanics, but are about character background and/or personality instead (clans, tribes, traditions...).

Of course, in both cases there are overlapping bits and other exceptions, but as a general rule...

I find it funny that what is considered prevalent in both games (mechanics in D&D, characters in WoD) is exactly what determines the class (again, in the mathematical sense) distinction.

 

[LostSoul]

That's not necessarily a good thing. IME with "a la carte" systems, characters tend to fall into two categories:

1) Characters with patently illogical skill sets
2) Characters that could have easily been written up with a loose classed system.

You can easily have "Characters with patently illogical skill sets" in class based systems. Look at the Ranger's TWF; why does every wilderness warrior have to have training in that style of combat? Or a Rogue who is a break-and-enter artist and definately not a combatant - why does he have the Sneak Attack, the ability to strike at vitals so well?

There are tradeoffs in both systems. Neither is better for the other in any way except personal taste.

 

[fba827]

Having a classless system would be like 3e now except you wouldn't have the notation for "Ftr" "drd" etc.. and instead you would just have a longer list of feats/abilities. After all, for most monster stats blocks, you already get a list of descriptions for each feat/feature after the number stats... classless systems would basically make the same thing required for characters.