D&D General Why Combat is a Fail State - Blog and Thoughts

[TiQuinn]

Even modern OSR has a distinct philosophy and play style that is not 5e.

I really hate that 5e is kind of described as being its own play style when we’re really just talking about a particular system.

 

[Arilyn]

I really hate that 5e is kind of described as being its own play style when we’re really just talking about a particular system.

Comes from dominating the hobby I guess.

 

[Remathilis]

In 5e, leaping in aggressively is often the smart choice. There is an expectation that encounters are balanced. 5e has more safety nets with healing and moving away from lingering consequences. This is why many (not all) players struggle when they switch to an old school game.

Yeah and that's why OS gets a reputation as the killer DM playstyle. If 5e is assumed the me balanced, then counter to that is to assume OS isn't balanced. (It might be, but the player cannot know that and thus must assume it's not). Therefore, unless you are playing Yolo style I don't care how many characters sheets I go though in a night, caution are over rewarded relative to risk.

 

[MGibster]

I even mentioned that becomes the antithesis of the moment. While the other players are having analysis paralysis, someone kicks down the door/drinks the potion/dives into the demon face portal and see's what happens. Its interesting and it certainly gets the ball rolling, but I would define that as the opposite of "smart play".

I don't know what smart play is. All I know is that I don't want to spend 10 minutes debating about which direction to go it. If a player is taking their time to check a door for traps or listening to what's on the other side then I will be happy to wait. If the discussion about which direction to go is meaningful (If we go east we run into X but if we go west we run into Y) then I'm happy to wait patiently. But if there's a pointless discussion about whether to take the hallway east or the hallway west I'm not going to wait very long before I pick a direction and walk.

 

[Remathilis]

I really hate that 5e is kind of described as being its own play style when we’re really just talking about a particular system.

Honestly, 5e is a part of the style that began with 3e and it really contains Pathfinder, M&M and a bunch of similar modern RPGs.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Honestly, 5e is a part of the style that began with 3e and it really contains Pathfinder, M&M and a bunch of similar modern RPGs.

Anyone who expects a superhero game (even an Iron Age one) to be played like an Old School D&D derivative, is really trying to play some other genre and describe it as a superhero game. Any arguments about changes in expectations in the evolution of modern D20 derivatives really needs to stick to fantasy for the comparisons to make sense at all.

 

[Arilyn]

Yeah and that's why OS gets a reputation as the killer DM playstyle. If 5e is assumed the me balanced, then counter to that is to assume OS isn't balanced. (It might be, but the player cannot know that and thus must assume it's not). Therefore, unless you are playing Yolo style I don't care how many characters sheets I go though in a night, caution are over rewarded relative to risk.

Sneak. Negotiate. Bluff. Avoid. Scary monsters beyond the group's capabilities are usually obvious. Set things up to give your group an edge.

I've been playing a lot of OSR games lately. We are not churning through character sheets because we play smart and cautious. In a modern style OSR adventure, there is lots of interesting things and NPCs to engage with. It's simply not a boring slog with short lived heroes. It's fun, exciting and challenging. And I really disliked D&D back in the day because it was everything you describe (in my experience).

Some great examples are Norman's Hole in the Oak, Brad Kerr's anthology, Wyvern Songs, Ben Milton's Waking of Willoby Hall, Kelsey Dionne's adventures and many more.

 

[MerricB]

Some great examples are Norman's Hole in the Oak, Brad Kerr's anthology, Wyvern Songs, Ben Milton's Waking of Willoby Hall, Kelsey Dionne's adventures and many more.

So much is in adventure design - regardless of system.

 

[Arilyn]

So much is in adventure design - regardless of system.

True, but the philosophy of how 5e is created often, (not always) leans into a more story focussed adventure. And that's great too. I ran several PF adventure paths.

But because of the strength of 5e characters and the many more powers they have, the adventures often feel different. Combat is usually assumed to be frequent. Also, the Gavin Norman style, which has been spreading throughout the OSR has only very lightly touched non-OSR adventure design.

I haven't been attempting to prove OSR is superior, just that it's not what many detractors think it is.

 

[Aldarc]

Yeah and that's why OS gets a reputation as the killer DM playstyle. If 5e is assumed the me balanced, then counter to that is to assume OS isn't balanced. (It might be, but the player cannot know that and thus must assume it's not). Therefore, unless you are playing Yolo style I don't care how many characters sheets I go though in a night, caution are over rewarded relative to risk.

OSR may not be "balanced" but there is an expectation that the GM telegraphs danger to the players so they can make informed decisions. If a 5e GM telegraphs a dragon cave, the players may assume that the dragon is level appropriate. If the OSR GM telegraphs a dragon cave, it may be their way of telling players avoid it and come back later when you are level appropriate, though players can also ignore that telegraphing to their own peril. Some OSR GMs will even be pretty open and transparent about things like, "Hey, you can tell that the area of this hex is more dangerous than where you have previously been."

Zelda: Breath of the Wild is OSR in the sense that the game world is not balanced. You will encounter things even in the starter area that can absolutely wipe the floor with you but the game telegraphs these dangers, and other times you frell around and find out. Alternatively, the player can choose to ignore almost everything in the game, run straight to the castle, and defeat Calamity Ganon with enough skill.

Likewise, the imbalance of the game is not always against the players. Part of the OSR experience, IME, is that the players will look for situations where the imbalance of the game either tilts in their favor or can find ways to tilt imbalance in their favor. This is also why I don't necessarily agree that "combat is a fail state" in OSR because sometimes players will have the advantage in combat and combat represents them capitalizing on that.