Why D&D is like pr0n

[demetri0us]

I totally get what the OP is saying.

Mine is a case study, certainly not a statistical analysis, but I have played all sorts of RPG's with dozens of different folks over the years. in those games I hear all the time how people dislike "cheesy characters" "min-maxing" and prefer roleplaying, yet folks are disappointed when they don't get right to combat and seem to always have the weapon that does d12 damage instead of the d6 weapon.

I have always found this dichotomy hilarious.

Dude, I totally feel you.

 

[Dausuul]

I suggest that there is a major selection bias at work: Those who seek to add more roleplaying to their hack-and-slash games are far more likely to post than those who seek to add more hack to their RP-heavy game.

There are two reasons for this:

#1: Mechanically, D&D (in any edition) strongly supports hack-and-slash. It offers little to no support for roleplaying; at best, it avoids obstructing it... much. Therefore, creating an RP-heavy game requires active effort. Why would a group that wants hack-and-slash be putting in the extra effort to create a roleplaying campaign in the first place?

#2: Why would anyone need advice or suggestions on how to bring the hack? You don't need anyone else's cooperation to turn a campaign into hack-and-slash. If you're the DM, have all monsters attack on sight and fight to the death. If you're a player, respond to any and all potential social encounters with "I waste it with my crossbow!" Armed with these simple and intuitively obvious axioms, you can turn an episode of "The Teletubbies" into a hackfest*. It's only when you're trying to create an RP-heavy game, which requires the cooperation of everyone at the table, that you're apt to come to ENWorld looking for ideas.

[size=-2]*Which sounds like a lot of fun, actually.[/size]

 

[Voadam]

It is absolutely self-evident on boards like enworld, that there is a strong body of players (DMs) banging on about exactly this subject - how much they like the rules-lite, combat-lite, RP/narrative game. Without looking, I'm sure there are at least 8 threads on the first two pages of this forum at any given time using this as a theme.

At the same time, there is very very little representation of the opposite case. I'm not performing a mathematical proof here - just an analogy.

Here is a copy of the thread titles for the current first page

[sblock]

Adventures DM advice: Is this fair? ( 1 2)
Mistah J Today 02:02 PM
by Raven Crowking 25 352
Characters Players, GMs, and "My character"... ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
Remathilis Today 01:51 PM
by Raven Crowking 176 2,715
Your Magical Preferences ( 1 2 3)
Aldarc Today 01:47 PM
by Hobo 33 601
Too Many Campaign ideas...
HeavensThunderHammer Today 01:47 PM
by gamerprinter 3 4
Adventures Can Anyone Help Me Find This Necro-Harem Scenario? ( 1 2)
khantroll Today 01:43 PM
by khantroll 15 218
OOTS 748 is up
Corathon Today 01:43 PM
by Corathon 0 1
Stealing mounts?
Jon_Dahl Today 01:39 PM
by Umbran 6 91
Killing the sense of wonder
spunkrat Today 01:33 PM
by Dausuul 14 173
No DDI updates?
Lord Xtheth Today 01:23 PM
by mudbunny 7 94
Ryan Dancey - D&D in a Death Spiral ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
mhensley Today 01:08 PM
by Wulf Ratbane 228 22,109
Experiences with letting players control a ship? ( 1 2)
Derren Today 01:05 PM
by CarlZog 19 322
D&D Mini paints
Griznuq Today 01:00 PM
by David Howery 6 121
Has the Wandering Monster concept died? ( 1 2 3 4)
Mournblade94 Today 12:53 PM
by Zhaleskra 50 1,101
Gameday Chicago Gameday 27 Planning Thread: getting ready for October 23rd ( 1 2 3)
buzz Today 11:54 AM
by Vyvyan Basterd 41 506
Wanted: A female point of view please ( 1 2)
Saint Mac Today 11:50 AM
by Plane Sailing 21 559
What would you look for in a new RPG? ( 1 2)
invokethehojo Today 11:23 AM
by Neonchameleon 16 244
Humor What's the Kewlest Combo Possible? ( 1 2)
Mercurius Today 11:02 AM
by FoxWander 21 327
Why D&D is like pr0n ( 1 2)
clip Today 11:02 AM
by Dausuul 21 497
Poll: The Frenzied Berserker: I'm Just Curious ( 1 2 3 4)
airwalkrr Today 10:59 AM
by ikkeman 51 1,231
If it's not real then why call for "realism"? ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
SilvercatMoonpaw2 Today 10:04 AM
by billd91 162 4,253
Do You Write In Or Modify Your Game Manuals? ( 1 2 3 4)
Lord Metal-Demon Today 09:53 AM
by karlindel 58 861
Keeping the sense of wonder alive ( 1 2 3)
akb Today 09:41 AM
by Hussar 32 499
Astral Sea as Spelljammer/Planescape hybrid; and a board game idea for WotC!
Mercurius Today 08:45 AM
by Silverblade The Ench 6 131
Would I enjoy D&D? ( 1 2)
Sanji Today 07:46 AM
by Neonchameleon 23 335
RPGA Reward Ship Tiles
GuJiaXian Today 06:56 AM
by GuJiaXian 1 126
Dragon Magazine Let's read the entire run ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
(un)reason Today 06:16 AM
by (un)reason 1,447 88,918
Some Thoughts on Campaign Design
Hussar Today 04:55 AM
by dvvega 8 234
Drow Religous Training for their Youth
Vaslov Today 04:53 AM
by Blackrat 3 112
General question...
steeldragons Today 03:38 AM
by Cor_Malek 10 161
Eberron Collector's Guide ( 1 2)
Echohawk Today 03:14 AM
by Echohawk 17 634
How to convince my players to give 2e a try? ( 1 2 3)
Sir Robilar Today 01:06 AM
by raindog308 36 728
When Your Party Is Low On Food ( 1 2)
Diamond Cross Today 12:50 AM
by khantroll 15 176
Post-Campaign Exhaustion
AngryMojo Today 12:06 AM
by marcq 11 262
DMs, what´s your preparation-to-enjoyment ratio? ( 1 2)
Sir Robilar Yesterday 11:09 PM
by scourger 28 427
Equipment Why Use Dungeon Tiles? ( 1 2)
Retreater Yesterday 10:12 PM
by amnuxoll 24 570
Rolling Ze Dices Redux - Electric Boogaloo!
Morrus Yesterday 09:24 PM
by coyote6 9 168
A Thief named Merric in the new Encounters season
Durn Yesterday 08:17 PM
by clip 1 107
Hi, I'm forawesomessake, and i'm new...
forawesomessake Yesterday 07:59 PM
by Gilladian 4 121
How ENWorld has tainted my love of D&D ( 1 2 3)
McTreble Yesterday 07:28 PM
by clip 30 890
A Druid Vampire ( 1 2 3)
Diamond Cross Yesterday 05:50 PM
by blargney the second 42 616
Choosing dungeon tiles: pdf or preprinted?
CarlZog Yesterday 04:55 PM
by frankthedm 5 99
Edition Love (not War) ( 1 2 3)
Mercurius Yesterday 03:47 PM
by Diamond Cross 35 733
"1st Edition Rules, 4th Edition Feel"? ( 1 2 3)
Geoffrey Yesterday 03:32 PM
by Ourph 40 1,217
RPGs in Target! ( 1 2 3 4 5)
Scribble Yesterday 01:37 PM
by ghaladen 62 2,565
Fat Dragon Games - E-Z Dungeons Basic Set: Review
adamx20 Yesterday 12:25 PM
by Zaukrie 9 2,902
Ideas for D&D gaming group poster?
barbarianguy Yesterday 12:12 PM
by barbarianguy 0 102
I have nobody else to turn to (3.5e)
Greyfeld Yesterday 11:58 AM
by Greyfeld 6 250
Is a retro-clone the right game for me? ( 1 2)
Scurvy_Platypus Yesterday 11:48 AM
by thedungeondelver 29 727
D&D & Comic Books Share A Similar Problem ( 1 2)
mattcolville Yesterday 09:09 AM
by delericho 17 613
History How "deep" into a setting will you buy? ( 1 2)
AllisterH Yesterday 06:54 AM
by delericho 28 511

[/sblock]

Here is the second
[sblock]

Humor Crazy things in a campaign
KOM 25th September 2010 10:31 PM
by DogBackward 3 137
Maps
DaveW 25th September 2010 09:12 PM
by ozreth 8 294
Equipment The question has been asked- Which new miniatures?
megamania 25th September 2010 08:40 PM
by jodyjohnson 5 160
Equipment What "sucks" about ENWorld General Forum.... ( 1 2 3)
Herschel 25th September 2010 06:45 PM
by pawsplay 30 807
MERGED - "About Edition Wars" threads x9 ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
Diamond Cross 25th September 2010 05:13 PM
by Chainsaw 198 6,297
RPG Adventure for a 4-year-old ( 1 2)
TikkchikFenTikktikk 25th September 2010 04:43 PM
by Sadrik 20 418
Alternity 2e Wish List ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)
dm4hire 25th September 2010 03:50 PM
by Mournblade94 105 1,726
Humor [OotS] #748
Jack Daniel 25th September 2010 02:03 PM
by Mouseferatu 7 335
Metaplots - it wasn't just TSR that did them ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
Wik 25th September 2010 12:37 PM
by Lord_Blacksteel 100 2,197
Would Darksun have been a better 1st release for 4e? ( 1 2)
Mournblade94 25th September 2010 10:48 AM
by Derulbaskul 22 512
Basketball or Golf? ( 1 2)
athos 25th September 2010 06:50 AM
by nedjer 19 285
First Edition feel with 4E rules ( 1 2 3 4 5)
Zelligars Apprentice 25th September 2010 05:58 AM
by Doug McCrae 64 1,308
Adventures triathlon...
aviel 25th September 2010 05:18 AM
by Cor_Malek 5 101
Equipment Man, Lords of Madness are looking awesome!! ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
Matrix Sorcica 25th September 2010 04:24 AM
by blargney the second 97 3,979
DnDI -- autorenewal
brehobit 25th September 2010 01:33 AM
by RLBURNSIDE 10 309
History, Mythology, Art and RPGs ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
Galloglaich 24th September 2010 09:41 PM
by Galloglaich 358 62,918
Adventures I want to make a gauntlet - and not the glove kind. ( 1 2)
Obryn 24th September 2010 09:08 PM
by mgbeach 26 496
Has anyone made good bar fight encounters? ( 1 2)
Noumenon 24th September 2010 09:03 PM
by Hadrian the Builder 23 414
The Problem I Find Myself In (Long, Sorry) ( 1 2)
Andrew D. Gable 24th September 2010 07:38 PM
by Mistwell 20 490
Torphies ( 1 2 3 4 5 6)
KOM 24th September 2010 06:50 PM
by jonesy 88 2,618
What religious pantheon do you use? ( 1 2 3 4 5)
MadLordOfMilk 24th September 2010 05:56 PM
by Voadam 62 1,146
Giant Rats?
Raven Crowking 24th September 2010 05:55 PM
by Dannyalcatraz 12 280
Poll: Do you have any dice superstitions ( 1 2 3 4 5 6)
MonsterMash 24th September 2010 05:12 PM
by NewJeffCT 85 1,131
Gameday Boston Gameday: October 2nd! ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
Princesskeyblade 24th September 2010 04:54 PM
by WalkingCorpse 96 2,052
Equipment Best marking & conditions out there ( 1 2)
MarauderX 24th September 2010 03:59 PM
by MarauderX 17 318
Kosmoceratops ( 1 2)
Doug McCrae 24th September 2010 03:11 PM
by Huw 23 496
Steampunk ( 1 2 3)
RangerWickett 24th September 2010 01:40 PM
by Dark Mistress 36 901
So what happens after 4E? ( 1 2 3)
Melkor 24th September 2010 01:36 PM
by Umbran 34 1,124
How to do a doomed, "Halo Reach" type game? ( 1 2 3)
Wik 24th September 2010 01:27 PM
by MortonStromgal 30 611
What's your favorite RPG that you've never actually played? ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
Bullgrit 24th September 2010 01:25 PM
by Mercurius 98 2,181
Charles Ryan leaving D&D (again!) ( 1 2)
CharlesRyan 24th September 2010 10:56 AM
by TheYeti1775 21 1,833
Moved: new game tool: "Gamer's Abacus" ipad app
amychrdev - - -
Savage Worlds - Our First Game ( 1 2)
Connorsrpg 24th September 2010 08:42 AM
by amerigoV 23 520
Otos 747
Raven Crowking 24th September 2010 08:35 AM
by Raven Crowking 6 278
Dancey v. Mearls? ( 1 2 3 4 5)
qstor 24th September 2010 07:48 AM
by Dausuul 73 3,440
DM Dilemma - I Need Help, ENWorld! - *UPDATED* - Putting YOUR ideas to work! ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
Gloomshroud 24th September 2010 02:29 AM
by TheAuldGrump 123 2,486
History An Older Experience System ( 1 2 3 4)
Votan 24th September 2010 02:16 AM
by marcq 46 807
Adventures 3.5 1st level adventure for 10 yr old DM ( 1 2)
Wellby 23rd September 2010 09:01 PM
by Olaf the Stout 15 249
Humor Name Your Band ( 1 2 3)
Diamond Cross 23rd September 2010 07:01 PM
by Traveon Wyvernspur 37 492
Settings - "empty" vs richly detailed locations ( 1 2)
pemerton 23rd September 2010 03:38 PM
by Jhaelen 26 793
My 4 year old son's first adventure
Festivus 23rd September 2010 01:07 PM
by jonesy 2 87
Humor I have a meeting on D&D at work in about an hour
NewJeffCT 23rd September 2010 01:04 PM
by NewJeffCT 14 450
Dark Fantasy D&D webcomic, with a twist. ( 1 2 3)
Sticknia 23rd September 2010 12:38 PM
by Sticknia 44 2,201
On the brand VS the game... ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)
The Ubbergeek2 23rd September 2010 10:49 AM
by Rel 136 2,371
Making meals of Monsters ( 1 2 3)
Longtooth Studios 23rd September 2010 08:41 AM
by renau1g 35 677
Deadlands - My Own Thread ( 1 2)
Connorsrpg 23rd September 2010 07:03 AM
by Connorsrpg 21 352
What happened to Gygax's Lejendary Adventures? ( 1 2 3)
Gloomshroud 23rd September 2010 01:25 AM
by jdrakeh 44 1,627
Cat-people miniatures for Victorian Era
sjmiller 23rd September 2010 12:42 AM
by Oryan77 1 91
Your favorite pickup game? ( 1 2 3)
Umbran 23rd September 2010 12:40 AM
by Festivus 39 708
Convention [Fairlee, VT, November 5-7, 2010] Carnage the 13th
DrFaust 22nd September 2010 10:31 PM
by DrFaust 0 30

[/sblock]

Can you tell me which ones if any out of those most current 100 you feel are banging on about how much they like rules light, combat lite, RP intensive games? None of them are jumping out at me.

"1e feel, 4e rules" and "4e feel, 1e rules" both seem to be about fairly rules heavy games with a bunch of combat.

The "Would I enjoy D&D" one is started by someone saying he explicitly hates roleplaying.

 

[Herschel]

Do you regularly view pornography?

I'm in a committed relationship with the same woman for more than a few years so my answer is the same as any other self-respecting guy in my situation:

You're darned right I do.

 

[Oryan77]

So, how is D&D like pr0n?

Pr0n HAHAHAHAHAHAHA OMG LMAO HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. He said pr0n HAHAHAHA oh man, that's classic. I see what you did there, you pretended to mistype and you mixed 2 letters around and used a zero instead of an 'o'!!!111!!1!one!!! That's hilarious HAHAHAHAHAHA OMG. You made me spit my drink all over my monitor HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Thanks a lot dude HAHAHA ROFLMAO HAHAHAHAHAHA. It's like that time I kept seeing people type l33t, which means leet, which means elite! It's just like that! OMG HAHAHAHA!

It's been what, 10 years and people still think saying pr0n is actually clever? Can't we just go back to calling it porn?

Anyway, D&D is just like porn. It's embarrassing if my wife catches me playing with it alone.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

How is D&D like porn? Let's take a look:

• Primarily targeted at young men.
  
• What was considered hardcore back in the 70s is mostly now softcore or "lite"
  
• Used to get most of it on paper. Now you really need the internet.
  
• The free stuff is OK, but you need to pay to get the good stuff.
  
• Stores dedicated to selling it usually smell odd are are a bit creepy to be in.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So, how is D&D like pr0n? Well, look at the official site and others like this. There are huge huge volumes and traffic on the CharOp boards. There are huge, detailed character guides. There are hundreds of questions about bent and broken features. CharOp in 4e even has its own language. There are unique phrases for character types and certain feats - no doubt imported from Diablo (and later WoW).

CharOp is something you can discuss that has a common ruleset, you can all agree on, and can nitpick. And there's recognised creativity and rules. It works well as a game in its own right.

And yet - go to any FLGS, any con, any RPG club. Meet other DMs - and what do 90% of them say first? "I like a rules-lite, RPG-heavy game that concentrates on the story telling. I like to focus on roleplaying and not too much combat."

If someone were to say that first to me, I'd accuse them of being a pod person or doppleganger. Also #define "Too much combat"

To, all these players that are juicing the plusses and minuses,

Who aren't always the same people as posting on the boards about how to do it. I was pretty effective on the 3e CharOp forums a few years ago - and the only time I ever played a full CharOp character was for a one-shot (and that for straight Bard - admittedly one using the Book of Exalted Deeds and abusing glibness, words of creation, a lyre of building, a scroll of fabricate (crossbow), and an alphorn for a peasant uprising - really not what we were meant to do with the drow at all).

 

[jdrakeh]

And yet - go to any FLGS, any con, any RPG club. Meet other DMs - and what do 90% of them say first? "I like a rules-lite, RPG-heavy game that concentrates on the story telling. I like to focus on roleplaying and not too much combat."

In fifteen years of gaming, I have never had anybody say this to me, either at a convention or a FLGS. Now, I might have said this to somebody else and those are my preferences, but I've had a really hard time finding people who share those preferences.

 

[Oryan77]

Am I understanding the OPs message correctly? Most gamers are rules-light roleplayers? If so, where the hell are they and how can I get them in my group?

In fifteen years of gaming, I have never had anybody say this to me, either at a convention or a FLGS. Now, I might have said this to somebody else and those are my preferences, but I've had a really hard time finding people who share those preferences.

Same here. I've gamed with probably close to 2 dozen or more people since I've played D&D. Not one single person ever said they prefer rules-light games and mostly roleplaying.

Even people that say they like 4e because it supposedly has less rules still usually border on the rules-lawyer side of things. I don't consider a person to be a rules-light gamer if they still bother to always look up a rule to make sure the DM is doing it right. I tried to be a rules-light DM when I started playing 3e. All I kept dealing with were players being rules-lawyers and questioning my every move. So I don't DM like that anymore because even my current players will look up rules rather than just let me do my thing.

And as far as roleplaying, I don't want to come off as being elitist or anything, but most of the gamers I've played with did not really roleplay very much even though they claim to be good roleplayers. I've even realized that some people that claim to be roleplayers think that they are roleplayers just because they respond to an NPCs dialogue (I guess they are roleplaying, but I'm looking for more depth than that). You won't distinguish one of their PCs personalities from another, and you won't learn anything about the PC other than what build they have & what quests they've done.

Some hack-n-slashers say they are roleplayers and then say, "Well my (powergamed) cleric is the silent type that attacks first and asks questions later cause he's a hothead." I've even seen "roleplayers" who come up with an interesting character concept during PC creation, and then all they seem to do during the game is rush everyone through the roleplaying moments by interrupting and saying, "blah blah blah, yeah yeah yeah" so they can get on to the next combat.

3e and 4e seems to be mostly built around the idea of combat & lots of rules. People want rules for accomplishing any little task as if it is game breaking to just allow the PC to swing on a chandelier and do a back flip as he lands on his feat. No, we gotta beat a DC check (or checks) just so we can hopefully look cool. And for roleplaying, the adventures barely even have NPC dialogue written in the boxed text anymore. I miss that dialogue, it helped give me an idea for how to roleplay the NPC.

I think the OPs opinion is 90% in his head or he isn't really interacting with very many gamers to know what the majority wants. I don't even see that on the forums even though he claims the first 2 pages are nothing but that. Half of the forums are dedicated to rules, combat, and character build discussions.

 

[Nifft]

There really isn't any dicotomy here.

Roleplaying your character (as in portraying their personality, goals and so on) is pretty much orthogonal to character optimisation. Whether my character has a +5 or +7 to hit has pretty much nothing to do with how likely they are to stand up and make a moving speech to the king.

Mmm. It is, and it isn't. Whether you start with a +5 or a +7 on your Diplomacy check could determine how moving your speech turns out to be -- and whether you have a +5 or a +7 on your attack could determine if you win the fight that allows you to stand before the king and speak.

Now, regarding optimization vs. roleplaying: there seem to be some people who equate the ability to recognize bad options with a reduction in options, but I disagree with that viewpoint.

As a hardcore character optimizer, I have the tools to make damn near any concept work. I like having those tools. Mastery of a system means (for me) more freedom within that system, and that means more choices -- all of which are GOOD choices.

Cheers, -- N