Why D&D is slowly cutting its own throat.

[Henry]

In response to which, i posit a couple related questions:

• if there were no longer D&D-branded products being published, but tons of D&D-compatible D20 System books, would D&D be "dead"?
• If there were no longer D&D RPG products being published, but tons of D&D-branded novels, computer games, card games, movies, a TV show or two, coming out on a regular basis, would D&D be "dead"?

In my opinion, Yes, and Yes.

Yes to the first, because the brand name is what is synonymous to the public; d20/OGL has such a smattering of the larger D&D market that were D&D brand name to die overnight, the public at large would think of it as "that game people used to play back in the 80's." Heck, the majority still do! Its current players would call it "that game that went out of business in 2005."

Yes to the second, because D&D is NOT a novel like, or a card game, or TV show. Even the general public knew this 20 years ago, because if it were merely some card game, it would not have stirred up such anti-D&D fervor. Parents and activists didn't know WHAT it was, they just knew it was something different.

D&D is not just "Eberron" or Forgotten Realms" - D&D incorporates those things, but it is not those things.

 

[buzz]

Well, i think part of the disagreement is over whether we're talking about D&D-the-RPG, or D&D-the-brand. LotR and Marvel Comics continuing to be successful despite the failure of their respective RPGs is, i think, a point in favor of the original poster: it's the "fluff" that's of primary interest to the fans, and keeps them coming back.

The original post was within the context of RPGs: "D&D-the-RPG will die if they don't start releasing more modules."

That LotR and Marvel are successful regardless of the success or failure of their respective RPGs doesn't support the original point when viewed from the RPG perspective. It just reiterates the fact that RPGs are a niche market that doesn't have much of an impact on the world at large.

On the contrary, they and the countless licensed RPGs that have failed before them show that fluff alone will not sell a game.

I think this is because of the continutiy of fluff: same roles (race/class), same feel of magic (both fire-and-forget, and what spells are available), same monsters, etc.

The continuities you're pointing out are largely mechanical. That 3e shares the basics of D&D's implied setting as well as levels, classes, races, saves, spell levels, spell slots, magic items (a +1 sword does exactly what it did in previous editions), experience points, rounds, initiaitve, hit points, armor class, rolling a d20 to-hit, same stats and stat range, etc. is the source of the continuity. If the design team had married D&D to a point-based 3d6 system with three stats, I don't think the transition would have been as smooth, flluff or no fluff.

Lord knows there have been plenty of RPGs that married D&D-isms to different systems; that didn't make them D&D in anyone's eyes.

IOW, it's the fluff that really defines "D&D", IMHO. Make relatively minor changes in the fluff with essentially no changes in the crunch, and people insist on referring to it as a new game; make radical changes to the crunch while retaining the basic fluff, and most call it "D&D with houserules".

I don't know. There have certianly been a fair share of settings published under the OGL (and before, by TSR) that bear no resemblance to the "implied fluff" you refer to. Is Planescape not D&D? It uses all the same rules. Ravenloft? Masque of the Red Death? Oathbound? Dark Sun? Iron Kingdoms? I mean, Eberron adds a new core class, action points, races, and downplays alignment... apparently, it's still D&D.

 

[woodelf]

Not to a publisher. The crunch is what makes money. And what players buy.

Are you kidding? 1e D&D was all crunch - there was virtually no "fluff" anywhere. No settings, no novels, the rule books didn't even have any fluff to speak of. And yet it sold like gangbusters. What keeps people coming back is (a) a playable system, (b) nostalgia, (c) and familiarity.

But the question is, why the nostalgia, and what is the familiarity for? The original poster is positing that the nostalgia is for the fluff, and the familiarity is for the fluff. It's purely anecdotal, and probably coincidental, but i had essentially zero exposure to any of the fluff beyond the PH Back In The Day, and have essentially zero nostalgia for D&D. [And what little fluff i did have exposure to, i almost universally disliked.]

Anyway, his point isn't that the fluff is the big seller, but that it is the fluff that keeeps customers interested at all, in the long term, even if it's the crunch they mostly buy.

No, it doesn't. And no they aren't. They farmed out much of the "fluff", and thus cut their responsibility to produce loss-leaders, while retaining the profitable portion of their business. Which has allowed mammoth volumes of "fluff" to be produced. It was a canny and far-sighted move.

And it may be the primary flaw in the original poster's conclusion. I see no reason why, even assuming the reasoning is sound, the fluff that keeps people coming back has to (1) be produced by the same company as the crunch or (2) be D&D-branded. Not to mention, the D20 System logo may have become closely-enough associated with the D&D brand to sidestep point 2. Anyway, i think the idea that the fluff is what keeps people coming back is correct, but that the fluff in question isn't that found in the rulebooks: it's the fluff that people want to recreate by gaming. And that might be the fluff of a D&D book, or a D&D novel--or their favorite TV show.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Originally Posted by Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)
Every person takes the limits of their own field of vision for the limits of the world.

Didn't he also write "suicide is the triumph of the intellect" . . . ?

 

[drakhe]

Current market regards RPG differently

You're partly right Celebrim, the modules are the game, the system merely supports the game. It has nothing to do with IP, both rules and modules are to some extent IP. Problem nowadays is the focus is not on modules but on crunch. People care less about adventure and care more about feats and skills and PRC's. The sesions I enjoy most is with this group where we all but ignore rules and dice and characters and whatnot. A map, a pad of paper to take notes and a whole lot of imagination... and epic adventures in far and unknown countries.

THATS WHAT RPG's ARE ABOUT!

 

[Celebrim]

You're partly right Celebrim, the modules are the game, the system merely supports the game. It has nothing to do with IP, both rules and modules are to some extent IP. Problem nowadays is the focus is not on modules but on crunch. People care less about adventure and care more about feats and skills and PRC's. The sesions I enjoy most is with this group where we all but ignore rules and dice and characters and whatnot. A map, a pad of paper to take notes and a whole lot of imagination... and epic adventures in far and unknown countries.

THATS WHAT RPG's ARE ABOUT!

Heh. You should have been here for the rule zero argument in the rules forum. You would have gotten a kick out of all the people claiming that RPG's were about the rules - adventure and imagination be damned. Or maybe not. The very best RPers I've had the priviledge to referee were people who learned who to play the game a long time before they learned the rules. To some people, that's a contridiction. I doubt you see it that way, and I expect you'd be a very entertaining player or DM.

-----

Anyway, his point isn't that the fluff is the big seller, but that it is the fluff that keeeps customers interested at all, in the long term, even if it's the crunch they mostly buy.

Exactly.

And it may be the primary flaw in the original poster's conclusion. I see no reason why, even assuming the reasoning is sound, the fluff that keeps people coming back has to (1) be produced by the same company as the crunch or (2) be D&D-branded.

I don't see any reason why it must be either. My point is a little more complex than that. First, that the other companies are now mostly producing crunch as well, and if profitable publication becomes only a crunch contest its possible that WotC could lose out to a system that for whatever reason gamers found more compelling then D20/D&D. For example, its entirely within the realm of possibility that Malhavoc's or Green Ronin's products could eventually depart from D20 to the degree that say 3rd edition Iron Lore or Blue Rose is not a D20 product. What then is to stop future gamers, ten years from now from coming back exclusively for the non-D&D products? To me what will really decide this is whether more gamers find 'Eberron' fluff more compelling than 'Diamond Throne' fluff or 'Aldis' fluff because its not the crunch that is the real strength of an RPG in the long run, precisely because RPG's aren't really about the rules but about the adventures.

And the homebrewers out there are probably much more likely to stop being dependent on WotC for either crunch or fluff. Certainly this was true to a large extent during 2nd edition, as many 1st edition gamers just more or less ignored the 2nd edition because it wasn't compatible with thier existing crunch or fluff. In my own gaming of the time, about the only 2nd edition product that I remember influencing anyone's game was it was decided that 2nd edition dragons worked better than 1st edition ones. Everything else was largely ignored.

 

[buzz]

First, that the other companies are now mostly producing crunch as well, and if profitable publication becomes only a crunch contest its possible that WotC could lose out to a system that for whatever reason gamers found more compelling then D20/D&D.

The key thing being ignored here is that D&D has never been tied to a particular setting. The commonalities between D&D gamers' eperiences always comes down to the core ruleset; even with individual house-ruling, it's the basic rules that we all have shared, not adventures or settings. (I've been playing D&D since 1980, and I can probably count on one hand the number of "classic" published adventures I've played.)

The implied setting elements (races, currency, nature of magic, monster demographics, role of adventurers) of D&D establish a baseline familiarity that allows any D&D player to join a campaign set in any setting or adventure locale and know basically how things work and what their options are. The core rule elements produce a game that's based on strong archetypes, group play, that is goal-oriented, that retains enough "gamist" bits that ease the transition from conventional games to D&D's RPG style, and that is both rigorous enough to survivve a bad DM and get out of a good DM's way.

All of these things contribute to D&D's lasting poularity. "Fluff" in terms of adventures and campaign settings figures in somewhere, but is not nearly as important as the style of play engendered by the rules. D&D has a *feel*, and it's that feel that brings people to the game.

Also, there have been systems that are more compelling (in some sense) than D&D since Runequest came out in 1978. This has not affected its popularity.

Adventures are not inconsequential to the conitnued success of D&D, but neither are they the be-all, end-all.

 

[Driddle]

I'm looking for the "The Ranger is Broken" thread. I took a left turn at "Senseless Gnome Racial Revisions Through the Years," then got off on "Half-Dragon Templates Applied to Dragons" ... And lost sight of the Interstate within just a few blocks.

My wife made me stop for directions.

Anyone? Anyone, please?

 

[Mark]

I'm looking for the "The Ranger is Broken" thread. I took a left turn at "Senseless Gnome Racial Revisions Through the Years," then got off on "Half-Dragon Templates Applied to Dragons" ... And lost sight of the Interstate within just a few blocks.

My wife made me stop for directions.

Anyone? Anyone, please?

Can't post there from here...

 

[The Shaman]

I'm looking for the "The Ranger is Broken" thread. I took a left turn at "Senseless Gnome Racial Revisions Through the Years," then got off on "Half-Dragon Templates Applied to Dragons" ... And lost sight of the Interstate within just a few blocks.

My wife made me stop for directions.

Anyone? Anyone, please?

Wow, I laughed so hard I think I passed a little urine...