Why did they lower spell DCs? (3.5)

[Balgus]

As I was reading through the feat section of PHB, I noticed that Spell focus and GrSF only gives a +1 per feat to spell DC. It didn't bother me much since I was gaing for Heirophant (FRCS) and that PrC has a class ability (Spell power +2) which increases your spell DC by 2, and increases your caster check for SR penetration by 2. But that changed in 3.5 (DMG) Now spell power is +1 effective caster level- which is basically +1 to heals, incr range, and +1 opposed checks.

Now is it just me or did someone say that casters are waaaay too powerful, and in order to fix that, we should gimpify their effectiveness.

Now this really pisses me off. I got th ebooks and have been pushin my DM to convert to 3.5, but losing this much power, I am going to be jakked....

edit Maybe I should have put something here for you guys to respond to...

What do you think? Should they have decreased everything, or was it good as was. I personally think that this will put casters a little behind classes that deal physical damage. Would this ever come into consideration when you choose whether to play a castre or archer or melee... ?

thanks and sorry for the rant

 

[Tidus4444]

See the sultans of smack thread, a nearly irresistable wizard. UNfortunately, the problem here was the archmage and red wizard classes, not spell focus, so I don't think they should have done this.

 

[Urbannen]

What is so funny is that now, as Balgus said, spell power no longer improves spell DC. The very thing they said they wanted to fix by nerfing spell focus and greater spell focus, they fixed anyway.

I'm sorry, but non-power gamer characters need Spell Focus (and yes, Greater Spell Focus) at their old level because it's just too easy to save against spells.

 

[ashockney]

Check out my "rant" on haste over at www.myrik.net.

Two big impacts to all spell casters (besides the hundreds of indivual spell changes):

1) The loss of the hasted partial action. This cut every spellcaster above 11th level's effectiveness in half! Right off the top. This may have gone too far. More playtesting is necessary to see the full impact.

2) The spell dc's min/maxed, using FR books, assuming Spell Power stacks: DC 40+spell level (Base 10+14 (maxed Int Sun Elf)+11 spell power + 4 Greater Spell Focus + 1 Spellcasting Prodigy) to DC 25+spell level. Spell Penetration against SR still rocks, but the saving throws are a huge difference. That's a 15 point swing (75%)!

Did 3.5 Edition "change" the game? Yep.

 

[sithramir]

Check out my "rant" on haste over at www.myrik.net.

Two big impacts to all spell casters (besides the hundreds of indivual spell changes):

1) The loss of the hasted partial action. This cut every spellcaster above 11th level's effectiveness in half! Right off the top. This may have gone too far. More playtesting is necessary to see the full impact.

2) The spell dc's min/maxed, using FR books, assuming Spell Power stacks: DC 40+spell level (Base 10+14 (maxed Int Sun Elf)+11 spell power + 4 Greater Spell Focus + 1 Spellcasting Prodigy) to DC 25+spell level. Spell Penetration against SR still rocks, but the saving throws are a huge difference. That's a 15 point swing (75%)!

Did 3.5 Edition "change" the game? Yep.

1) Wow. Now I can only fill the role of 2-3 players while in a fight with my spells.

2) See 1.

 

[Celtavian]

re

What is so funny is that now, as Balgus said, spell power no longer improves spell DC. The very thing they said they wanted to fix by nerfing spell focus and greater spell focus, they fixed anyway.

I'm sorry, but non-power gamer characters need Spell Focus (and yes, Greater Spell Focus) at their old level because it's just too easy to save against spells.

It really depends. It is easy for creatures such as Dragons and Outsiders to save against spells. It is also fairly easy for monks to save against spells. Most other classes and creatures have a weak saving throw that makes them very susceptible to many types of spells that will most definitely lead to their death.

I don't think keeping Spell Focus at its old level would have hurt the game. I don't quiter understand why they changed it.

Really, think about it. A level 20 Wizard with a starting eighteen intelligence, a +3 Inherent bonus to intelligence, three points spent from leveling, Spell Focus (necromancy) and a +6 intelligence enhancement item casts a Finger of Death on the following: DC: 10 + 10 (For intelligence) +1 Spell Focus + 7 from spell = DC 28 Fort Save.

Fighter with 22 Con and a +5 Cloak of Resistance: +23 Fort Save. Only misses on a 4 or less.

Wizard or Rogue with a +5 Cloak of Resistance and a 14 Con: +13 Fort Save. Misses on a 14 or less.

Cleric or Monk with a +5 Cloak of Resistance and a 14 Con: +19. Misses save on a 8 or less.

They went to far lowering both spell power and Spell Focus. I think I might change it back to previous levels.

 

[Bagpuss]

I'm confused how what has changed exactly just (Greater) Spell Focus?

What's this "Spell Power" people are talking about?

 

[sithramir]

Re: re

It really depends. It is easy for creatures such as Dragons and Outsiders to save against spells. It is also fairly easy for monks to save against spells. Most other classes and creatures have a weak saving throw that makes them very susceptible to many types of spells that will most definitely lead to their death.

I don't think keeping Spell Focus at its old level would have hurt the game. I don't quiter understand why they changed it.

Really, think about it. A level 20 Wizard with a starting eighteen intelligence, a +3 Inherent bonus to intelligence, three points spent from leveling, Spell Focus (necromancy) and a +6 intelligence enhancement item casts a Finger of Death on the following: DC: 10 + 10 (For intelligence) +1 Spell Focus + 7 from spell = DC 28 Fort Save.

Fighter with 22 Con and a +5 Cloak of Resistance: +23 Fort Save. Only misses on a 4 or less.

Wizard or Rogue with a +5 Cloak of Resistance and a 14 Con: +13 Fort Save. Misses on a 14 or less.

Cleric or Monk with a +5 Cloak of Resistance and a 14 Con: +19. Misses save on a 8 or less.

They went to far lowering both spell power and Spell Focus. I think I might change it back to previous levels.

Most people in my games don't use cloaks of resistance as much cause they are trying to get other things like cloak of elvenkind/wings of flying/ etc. The ones that do even at the high level might not have gotten a full +5 item. Take away that cloak from all 3 classes.

Fighter needs a 9 or less to fail

Wizard needs 19 or less to fail

Cleric monk need 13 or less.

If everyone in your game has those items then of course you should feel its underpowered. Maybe you should think into either not giving those items out so easily or not allowing them to to buy that powerful of an item in towns even if it is relatively cheap. Or maybe you should make those two feats give +3 or so to even it out as a house rule.

This is the way they design it. Not for "well they all probably have 5 higher from items which is an equivalent of like 10 levels for some of those classes".

 

[Psion]

I never had a problem with Spell Focus, but then, I never allowed archmages and my players didn't abuse the buffs. But considering they fixed both of those, I think nerfing spell focus was overkill.

 

[mmu1]

Re: re

Really, think about it. A level 20 Wizard with a starting eighteen intelligence, a +3 Inherent bonus to intelligence, three points spent from leveling, Spell Focus (necromancy) and a +6 intelligence enhancement item casts a Finger of Death on the following: DC: 10 + 10 (For intelligence) +1 Spell Focus + 7 from spell = DC 28 Fort Save.

Fighter with 22 Con and a +5 Cloak of Resistance: +23 Fort Save. Only misses on a 4 or less.

Wizard or Rogue with a +5 Cloak of Resistance and a 14 Con: +13 Fort Save. Misses on a 14 or less.

Cleric or Monk with a +5 Cloak of Resistance and a 14 Con: +19. Misses save on a 8 or less.

The poor wizard... He only has a 70% chance of killing an equal level Rogue, Bard or Wizard, and a 35% chance of killing a Cleric, Monk or Druid, and a 20% chance of killing the Fighter with a single 7th level spell when he can cast 9th level ones. And he's using a whopping 1/20th or so of his resources - oh, the humanity...

And it's not like he can cast any Will save spells on the Fighter with any hope of success, and high level spells that don't even give saves don't exist either...

The real problem here is that at higher levels, you end up with a huge disparity between the saves of humanoid NPCs and "monsters" - if you can easily affect the monsters, the NPCs are almost helpless, if the NPCs have a fighting chance, your spells do almost nothing against things like outsiders (especially with SR in the equation). It's something they still haven't even come close to fixing.