Why did WotC start the Polymorph "Errata Wars"?

[Lanefan]

Quickest and easiest fix for polymorph is to say "if you've never seen one, you can't change into one, because you don't know enough about it". That right there will eliminate any number of oddball ideas...

We rarely if ever use self-polymorph for combat. Far more often it gets used for scouting, travel, or occasionally digging (poly-ing into an Umber Hulk can get one out of many sticky situations).

Right now, my Illusionist has been forced to use poly-self to turn back into herself (!) due to an effect that left her a twisted cripple otherwise. Anyone else ever had to do this?

Lanefan

 

[I'm A Banana]

you can simply say "No".

One of the wonderful things about 3e is that DMs are encouraged to say "yes." A DM has enough to do without scouring the monster manuals for possible abuses of a single spell, IMHO.

Polymorph worked against that positive philosophy by forcing DMs to either say "no" or have crazy powerful ninjas running around blowing things up with their ubermuscles.

I very very much prefer the version where I can say "yes" and not have it be crazy powerful.

Though a high-level "instantly select a form" or the idea of Polymorph being like Summon Monster are all really good ideas, and are actually surprisingly easy to *yoink*.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

One of the wonderful things about 3e is that DMs are encouraged to say "yes." A DM has enough to do without scouring the monster manuals for possible abuses of a single spell, IMHO.

Polymorph worked against that positive philosophy by forcing DMs to either say "no" or have crazy powerful ninjas running around blowing things up with their ubermuscles.

I very very much prefer the version where I can say "yes" and not have it be crazy powerful.

Though a high-level "instantly select a form" or the idea of Polymorph being like Summon Monster are all really good ideas, and are actually surprisingly easy to *yoink*.

Matter of opinion, I realize, but to me, 3E didn't so much encourage the DM to say "yes" but rather to not say "no" because "it is in the rules, and the rules are balanced".

My job as a DM is not to balance the whole game system, but only the game I have at hand, which can be a completely different beast. That means e.g. if Wartrolls don't exist on my world, there is no excuse or explanation why I should allow a character from that world who hasn't ever heard of such a creature to transform into it. Knowledge checks cover the stuff that exists on this world on that topic, so even Knowledge (Monsters) shouldn't be able to uncover non-existent species.

That is the basic problem with all the Polymorph problems, apparently...the attitude that "if the player found it in some monster manual, the DM HAS to allow it, which can lead to overpowered characters, so the designers would have to cross-check EVERY monster they create against potential game abuse". Which is prevalent because, apparently, the designers first did their best to untrain the DM to say "no" by himself, and train the players to expect the DM to stick to the written rules instead of the spirit they were written in. At least that is how this reasoning appears to me. YMMV and all that.

 

[jasin]

My job as a DM is not to balance the whole game system, but only the game I have at hand, which can be a completely different beast. That means e.g. if Wartrolls don't exist on my world, there is no excuse or explanation why I should allow a character from that world who hasn't ever heard of such a creature to transform into it. Knowledge checks cover the stuff that exists on this world on that topic, so even Knowledge (Monsters) shouldn't be able to uncover non-existent species.

But what if you want a world that does include wartrolls?

And even if you don't, I think it's a good bet that the typical D&D world will include things like stone giants, trolls or hags.

 

[IceFractal]

I think the new changes are in completely the wrong direction, for a number of reasons:

1) Sorcerers get the shaft. It was bad enough when spells like Emotion and Symbol were split in their component parts, but now a Sorcerer can only turn into one or two things, ever, because each form is a different spell? Great, just great.

2) Replaces creativity with preset options. Forget about oddball strategies or interesting plans from form-changing, just take your static combat bonuses.

3) Lack of depth. Polymorph inspired devotion, it inspired significant planning and research into its uses. These new spells are about as memorable as a crossbow bolt. Also, better strategy in it's use yielded better results, which is the way it should be.

4) Personal range limits cooperation. Why the heck is this a good thing? The Wizard buffing the tank with Polymorph is teamwork, it's what they're supposed to do! If the spell only effects the caster, then either they end up a stronger warrior than the tank, which makes the tank feel useless, or they're still weaker, in which case why bother casting it?

5) Totally ignores the non-combat applications of Polymorph. Want to sneak into an ogre encampment, or tunnel under a wall, or navigate a cavern system? Forget it; it isn't combat, so it's too hard to balance.

6) Tramples fun under the heavy hand of balance. Balance is a good thing, but it is not the only thing, or even the most important thing. Fun should trump balance, and (IMO) Polymorph is a lot more fun than the new replacements.



But apparently, balance was more important than all that. I can understand if a group like the RPGA bans or alters it, because they need consistent rules across all their games. But for a home group, why is this necessary?

There are dozens of ways to flat-out break the game, so it's necessary to voluntarily not do so, instead of following the rules as the only input. Players simply need to exercise restraint, and DM's need to sometimes lay down the law. If someone is using spell X to break the game, tell them to stop breaking it, instead of banning spell X.

 

[pedr]

It must be said, if the existing rules, or a different tweak, work for you... keep using them!

I think I understand changing the core rules of D&D though - Polymorph et al are very complicated spells which don't always say clearly what they do and lead to both delays and rules arguments. Its wise for Wizards to try to create some rules which don't do that (in fact, in a sense, wasn't that the whole philosophy of 3e?)

 

[Schmoe]

(snipped for brevity)

I think the new changes are in completely the wrong direction, for a number of reasons:

1) Sorcerers get the shaft...
2) Replaces creativity with preset options...
3) Lack of depth...
4) Personal range limits cooperation...
5) Totally ignores the non-combat applications of Polymorph...
6) Tramples fun under the heavy hand of balance...

QFT

I would prefer to place some limitations on how much the spell can do than restrict the inherent creativity and flexibility of the spell. Something like:

No stat can gain more than 1/3 caster level
Natural AC can't increase by more than 1/2 caster level
Gain 1 exceptional quality per 3 caster levels
Gain 1 supernatural quality per 6 caster levels
etc.

If a form would confer a greater bonus, it confers the maximum allowable instead. If a form has more Ex or Su qualities than the caster can gain, he must choose which ones he gains.

That's just a starting point, but it starts to put some limits on what can be done while still allowing for player creativity.

 

[Darmanicus]

Quickest and easiest fix for polymorph is to say "if you've never seen one, you can't change into one, because you don't know enough about it". That right there will eliminate any number of oddball ideas...
Lanefan

Great idea.

 

[Hussar]

Quickest and easiest fix for polymorph is to say "if you've never seen one, you can't change into one, because you don't know enough about it". That right there will eliminate any number of oddball ideas...

We rarely if ever use self-polymorph for combat. Far more often it gets used for scouting, travel, or occasionally digging (poly-ing into an Umber Hulk can get one out of many sticky situations).

Right now, my Illusionist has been forced to use poly-self to turn back into herself (!) due to an effect that left her a twisted cripple otherwise. Anyone else ever had to do this?

Lanefan

That's fine, except it ignores Knowledge skills. If I've got 15 ranks in Kn Dungeoneering, I would think that I've seen at least pictures, and pretty detailed ones at that, of pretty much anything I can make a Kn check about.

I watched what a wizard polymorphed into a behir could do. It's very, very ugly. If your BAB is high enough, you simply substitute unarmed attacks, (sure you take the AOO) for primary attacks. Why you ask? Because every successful grapple initiates 6 rake attacks from the behir. With a plus umpteen grapple bonus because I'm a huge creature, I win pretty much every time. Grapple, rake, pin, rake. Continue to pin, rake. Obliterate pretty much any creature. Sure, it won't work if we're in tight quarters, but, you aren't in tight quarters in every fight.

And that's just out of the SRD.

Someone upthread mentioned how the spell no longer scales. GOOD. A 4th level spell should not be the first thing I cast when I'm 14th level. No other spell scales particularly. Most spells cap out after x levels, and, direct damage spells have all sorts of other issues like SR checks and energy immunities.

 

[Destil]

Great idea.

Yeah. Nothing like the classic debate:

"Well, my druid has a 16 Int, 24 Wis and 12 ranks in Knowledge Nature (along with a +4 synergy bonus and +4 circumstance from my magic items)."

"Sorry, you've still never seen a dire bear."


I think that a DM approved list of 10-20 creatures for the basic pollymorph spell (why did they make alter self have to be based on pollymorph now? It was such an elegant spell in 3.0) works best. Though it's the most work for the DM. The trend towards 1 spell 1 effect is honestly in my top 5 problems of 3rd edition, and in the top 3 of 3.5 (no emotion, no symbol, no reversible spells). It's a pain for a wizard to need to learn 6 pollymorphs and it makes it a terrible option for a sorcerer.


Allowing SU and EX abilities is usually where you get into trouble (Choker and Balor, I'm looking at you!) Rich's shapechange template is a very good starting place, with specific spells that can retain specific abilities (his dracomorph, for example).

This is my 3E rules, 2E feel version of the classic polly. Retains the non-combat utility but allows for some classic flexibility as well:

Transmutation [Shapechangeing]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Self
Target: You
Duration: 1 hour/level (see text)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You transform, gaining the Shapechanged template for the duration of the spell. You regains hit points as if having rested for one day upon casting of this spell and changing form the first time. The assumed shape is subject to the following restrictions:

(standard size, type and HD limits go here)

For the duration of the spell, you can continue to change forms. Doing so is a full round action and each time you change forms the total remaining duration of the spell is reduced by 1 hour. If you attempt to change forms and the remaining duration is less than 1 hour the spell ends and you revert to your natural form. Reverting to your natural form counts as changing forms.

Material components: the cocoon of a caterpillar.


And an example variant polymorph I'm happy with.

Fiendform
Transmuation [Evil, Shapechanging]
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Duration: 10 min / level

As pollymorph, except you must choose forms of the Outsider type with the (Evil) subtype, you gain the Spell Resistance, Energy Resistance, Damage Reduction and ability to overcome Damage Reduction of your chosen form and each subsequent change reduces the duration by 10 min instead of 1 hour. You also gain up to three spell-like abilities of a form. These abilities can not replicate spells higher level than 1/4th your caster level, you use your caster level for the caster level of the ability and the key ability score modifier for save DCs is your Intelligence modifier or Charisma modifier (for wizards and sorcerers, respectively).

In addition you gain some benefits (and drawbacks) of the outsider type: you are immune to effects that rely on your normal type (such as charm person for humans), but you are subject to banishment and similar effects, such a spell sends you to the home plane of your current form (DM's choice for creatures that are native to more than one plane).

Material Component: A pinch of dirt or drop of water from en evil aligned plane.