Why do 3E clerics get such good press?

Whenever I hear complaints along the lines of 'my players always do the same thing', I ask whether the campaign is encouraging them to do things differently. A pure dungeon crawl campaign will always encourage the same tactics, and that can get very boring (especially over 20 levels). If you want your players to vary their repertoire, vary their goals, challenges, and environment.

If you want to be a crafty character and make lots of magic items, cleric is the way to go. Since they get every spell on their list, they can make a really wide variety of items automatically.

I'm getting a lot of variety out of my Dwarven cleric's spell list. While it's true that there are certain spells that will almost always be useful (e.g. Protection from Evil, Silence, Dispel Magic, Bestow Curse) and will see frequent use, the same is true of wizards and sorcerers (Magic Missile, Sleep, Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Fireball/LB, Fly). The fact that you see the benchmark spells used over and over does tend to make the spellcasting classes feel more generic--it's unfortunate that there are spells which are obviously better or of more general utility than all the others of the same level. But this is not a problem with Clerics, and I feel that the addition of Domains helps that a great deal.

Some useful cleric tricks that I've picked up:

*Obscuring Mist--great for closing on creatures with 10' reach without incurring an AoO.
*Heat Metal on self (ideally with a bit of fire resistance, but often you can tough it out)--walk through Web spells like a hot knife through butter.
*Make Whole--never get on a boat without it!

Cheers,
Ben
 

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Versatility

People love them because of their versatility and the combinations of things you can do.

However, not everything is universal. I've played with many DM's who house rule, and even I tend to play clerics that aren't mainstream.

I play a Cleric of Wee Jas. I can't spontaneously cast to heal, but it doesn't seem to bother the party too much.

I also play in another group where the DM only allows spontaneous casting of domain spells, because he believes that a cleric should only be able to spontaneously channel spells that have a direct relation to the gods core beliefs.

Again, it's the versatility things. Clerics are extrememly adaptable.
 

stevelabny said:
Once you choose a certain type of cleric, I feel that you become a "scripted" character.
At almost every combat, you will do the same exact thing... righteous might, divine power, attack. etc. The cleric's imaginary versatility is at character creation, where you can choose to be a war cleric or an elemental blaster cleric or a rogue cleric. But after that selection, you will probably fall into a pattern.

I think my clerics tend to maintain their versatility. The dwarven cleric I play in the Legacy of the Green Regent campaign finds him playing different roles depending on the make up of the party at the table. At Origins we had plenty of melee fighters, but lacked a strong arcane caster. So my cleric tended to be relying heavily on spells to either weaken or damage the enemy and only headed into melee once or twice and that was mainly to help get the rogue out of trouble. At Gen Con we didn't have a really strong toe-to-toe melee fighter really. So I found myself buffing up and wading in to help the melee fighter in combat. I think that cleric can be pretty flexible to help fill a role the party needs.
 

Clerics are the best because they along with druids are favoured by the designers. In any splatbook you buy you're almost guranteed to find broken materials for the cleric and druid.
 

It looks like you've made exactly the same mistakes the designers did when they overpowered the Cleric in 3.x

Your confusing "interesting" and "exciting" with "mechanically powerful or useful", and your forgetting that whats "interesting" and "exciting" is purely a matter of taste, whereas what is mechanically powerful is not.

You have hit on the actual reason why a lot of people dont like to play the Cleric. Its not because they arent powerful enough, and its not even neccesarilly because they are the "medic". Often times its either because the player dislikes the roleplaying connotations of being a "priest" and/or because generally when people want to play a spellcaster, they want to play a mage. Because Mage spells do generally look and feel a lot more interesting, mechanically effectiveness aside, and because people are usually wanting to emulate their favorite magic using characters from books and movies, and the Cleric doesnt generally fit most of those.



That aside, its purely up to you wether you find the Clerics spells and abilities interesting or not, but they are powerful mechanically. The Cleric is almost certainlly the most mechanically powerful class overall. The Druid is very strong too but I dont believe its quite equal overall.

Theres one big reason for this. The Clerics defensive characteristics and survivability are above those of pretty much any class, and their offense is at least as good as that of any other class. They have 1 less hit point per level than a fighter, and can wear the same armor. They have the two important saves as good catagories, and since Wis is their primary stat their Will save is going to be phenomenal. So even an unprepared Cleric has a high degree of defense. Then you add in Spell Resistance, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Resist/Protection from Energy etc and a Cleric with a little preperation is nearly invulnerable.

Now you are right that at lower levels their offense isnt great...although its honestly not that bad either since again they have enough HP, AC and attack bonus to melee a bit, plus Spiritual Weapon, Hold Person, Shield of Faith, Searing Light etc even at low levels. But then from about level 7 on it gets crazy. Divine Power turns them into a fighter when it counts. Righteous Might if theres time lets them exceed the fighter. Then you have Slay Living, Harm, Destruction, Implosion, Blasphemy etc, and for the swarms of lesser enemies, Flame Strike and Fire Storm.

Now that doesnt seem like many spells, and it isnt. But how many doesnt really matter. They work, quite well.



Once you choose a certain type of cleric, I feel that you become a "scripted" character.At almost every combat, you will do the same exact thing... righteous might, divine power, attack. etc. The cleric's imaginary versatility is at character creation, where you can choose to be a war cleric or an elemental blaster cleric or a rogue cleric. But after that selection, you will probably fall into a pattern.


Well as has already been mentioned, this happens with all characters.

Nextly, the versatility is not imaginary, nor is it at character creation. Its in the spell list which is in the end just about as broad in function as the wizards. Its in the fact that the Cleric has automatic access to every spell on that list, and more spell slots than any other caster save the Sorcerer to use them with. Its in the fact that a Cleric also has the option of meleeing relatively well, and with a single spell can melee very well if needed.

The Domains are just icing on the cake that add the ability to gain limited access (or unlimited access if your using the absurdities in Complete Divine) to some of those few effects the Cleric spell list itself doesnt have.





This isn't helped by the spell list, which I feel always has a "best spell" or "best two spells" at every level, so you constantly see clerics use the same spells over and over.


This has no effect on how powerful the class is, if the spells work. And again, its true of all spellcasters.



The cleric's imaginary versatility is at character creation, where you can choose to be a war cleric or an elemental blaster cleric or a rogue cleric. But after that selection, you will probably fall into a pattern.


This is not the case. Most of a Clerics capabilities stem from core spells on the Cleric spell list. So you can actually generally switch among these roles with little diffaculty. In particular, even if you take Domain like Travel or Trickery or Destruction to gain access to their spells, the stuff that really lets a Cleric melee is, again, on the Cleric spell list itself.



The utility spells also seem to not be as varied as a wizards utility spells.


Eh...Wizards have the full-blown Teleport spells, and Fly, and they have spells that make something out of nothing (major/minor creation, Leomund's Hut and Mord's Mansion etc).

But Clerics have Air Walk, which can give much of the tactical advantage of Fly (not all, but it gets you out of melee range if you want it) and Wind Walk is an excellent travel spell. Clerics are also almost certainlly better at overall divination. They are the only ones who can predict the future (Augury, Divination). Commune is better than Contact Other Plane in pretty much every way. Find the Path is incredible. The get True Seeing a level earlier than Wizards.

And...they can heal, which wizards cannot do at all. And they can remove pretty much any sort of status effect...disease, poison, transmutations, curses...whereas Wizards only have the Dispels, Remove Curse, and Break Enchantment.



Which is probably the reason I dislike them, since I prefer bard/rogue jack-of-all-trades types.


Within the context of combat, the Cleric is a far better jack of all trades than bard or rogue. The only thing a bard has that a Cleric doesnt is skills, mostly various social/RP skills, which doesnt come into play in combat. the Cleric is a better fighter and a better spellcaster overall, although ironically despite peoples insistence that the Cleric is a support class and most of their resources go to the party, the Bard is a better party-enhancer except in the area of defense against spells and supernatural stuff, which is the Clerics area.



So why do you (or others you know) love clerics so much?


I think a lot of what your seeing is people talking about and/or enjoying the mechanical power of the Cleric. Not the RP aspects, and not on a level of stuff thats big and flashy and fun. The Clerics offensive power isnt especially impressive in look or aproach, its just powerful.


Am I just missing all the cool things they can do? Am I missing uses for spells? Or is it just my personal play style that makes me dislike clerics?


All of the above I'd say. Although I think the last one is what leads to the first two to some extent. You dont care for the class conceptually and RP wise (I dont either) , and you look at the spells and stuff from the perspective of how interesting they are in terms of feel and concept, and your missing how powerful they are mechanically, especially when combined with the Clerics base class features.
 

beaver1024 said:
Clerics are the best because they along with druids are favoured by the designers. In any splatbook you buy you're almost guranteed to find broken materials for the cleric and druid.

Along with 'broken' crap for every other class, PrC, pseudo-new class and new setting. Yay, people like to sell books.

Check out the Monk1/Cleric10 I have been playing here:

http://dndnpcs.wikispaces.org/Larassamnes+Terrera

Note at the bottom in the scratch section the application of buffs from mostly spells.

Role-playing is still up to the player. If you don't like religion then play an atheist cleric or loose all your morals, or just keep playing the 'god' card whenever you want your way. No one is making the cleric take the moral high road all the time.
 

When I play a cleric it is invariably the cleric that breaks the game for the PCs. In one game I cast "find the path" which completely bypassed all traps and led us right to the climax of the adventure where the cleric provided the boosts and fire support that made the climax an easy battle. The cleric is full of spells like "commune", etc, that make short work of many plots.
 

fuindordm said:
Whenever I hear complaints along the lines of 'my players always do the same thing', I ask whether the campaign is encouraging them to do things differently. A pure dungeon crawl campaign will always encourage the same tactics, and that can get very boring (especially over 20 levels). If you want your players to vary their repertoire, vary their goals, challenges, and environment.

That is one of the best quotoable comments on ENWorld in a few months at least.

That's just plain good and insightful advice.
 

stevelabny said:
So why do you (or others you know) love clerics so much?

I don't love clerics, but I am aware, that they (along with druids) are the most powerful class in the PHB, because, apart from skills, they got just about EVERYTHING.

Bye
Thanee
 

Well, speaking as someone who loves playing cleric's I admit to some bias towards them. :)

My current character (3.5) is a priest of Cuthbert. Now, I took him a little bit away from the standard and made him a bit of a cultist. Borrowing heavily from Zorastrian beliefs, I decided that Korbach believes in the spiritual purity of fire. All other elements are tainted by evil (water) and only fire can purify. He prostyletizes frequently and constantly tries to convince those around him of the truth of his faith. Korbach has become one of my all time favourite characters, not because he's death on wheels, but because sliding into the mindset of this character is just so much fun. I also slid in a level of Half-Elemental Fire from Dragon, but that was after I had created the character that I got that Dragon issue. It just fit so well that both me and my DM thought of it at the same time.

Mechanically, he operates as the front line fighter most of the time. It's a very high RP game though, so combat has become somewhat secondary. His goal is to found his own church and spread his unique faith. Kind of a Jim Jones with arsonist tendencies. :)

Really, I can't imagine thinking that clerics are slotted into any particular role. The vast differences brought on by different faiths means that two clerics should rarely look even remotely similar in outlook. A cleric is tied to his faith and his alignment. Take it to an extreme and you've got a lovely little zealot on your hands. Tone it down and you've got the friendly Father Generic guiding those around him with the lightest of touches. Clerics, with perhaps the exception of the bard, are the most gregarious of classes. They should automatically be searching out others to talk to (and occasionally set on fire) to bring the word of their faith.

Then again, there's always the aesthetic cleric who is more like a mendicant monk travelling to "find the path" of his faith. He's quieter about his beliefs, but, they are no less strong for all of that. The possiblilities for role play with a priest really are endless.

Allowing yourself to fall into a rut dictated by the mechanics of the class is not necessary. With a bit of creativity on the part of the player, a cleric should be a vibrant, living character that is very, very memorable. Just like any other class. It's never up to the DM or the mechanics to make a class role play worthy. It's always up to the player to make a character memorable.
 

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