Why do DM's like Dark, gritty worlds and players the opposite?

[Nifft]

I'm happy that searching every millimeter of some underground structure by hand is no longer one of the principle challenges offered by the game. I prefer other tests of skill (particularly the kind that don't also test my patience).

We used to have to make our own maps, too. (As players, not in character.) That totally sucked.

Though I do kinda miss cracking open every remotely breakable object encountered, piñata-style, in hopes of finding a magic item.

Oh, I still do that.

"You guys need a short rest? Fine. I magic missile the big statue until it's rubble. The two other statues, too."

Cheers, -- N

 

[jdrakeh]

I am certain that I'm not the first person to state it on this thread, but I like dark, gritty, settings as both a GM and as a player.

 

[Andor]

The only question I asked was, "Is there a problem with only enjoying your character's in game abilities". I asked why some people think it is superior to challenge the player and not the character.

The whole point of the game is to challange the player. Usually he is challanged through the medium of his character, but not everything the character finds challenging is challenging or even interesting to the player.

A character with an Int of 3 might find tying his shoes to be a great challange, but few would care to RP through it. Certainly not more than once.

Similarly if the PCs are climbing a 5 mile spiral staircase winding it's way up and around a volcano it is an extremely arduous physical and probably mental challenge to the character, but aside from some flavor text all the player wants to know is of he is fatigued at the top and can he roll for initiative yet?

Conversely a magical puzzle might be the simplest of childs play for your Int 20 wizard who has been steeped in magical lore since he was 3, but for the player it's more fun to actually be presented with a puzzle than to hear "You come up to the door. There is a puzzle. Bhab solves it and you move on."

 

[Nifft]

The whole point of the game is to challange the player. Usually he is challanged through the medium of his character, but not everything the character finds challenging is challenging or even interesting to the player.

Ah, now this is interesting, and may explain some of the disconnect.

See, IMHO the whole point of the game is to entertain the group (players and DM alike). The game's challenges are there to entertain -- but like many things, if you take them beyond a certain point, they just become work.

That point, between fun challenge and work, is going to vary from person to person.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Garthanos]

The whole point of the game is to challange the player. Usually he is challanged through the medium of his character, but not everything the character finds challenging is challenging or even interesting to the player.

It's not the "whole point", some of it is involve, illuminate, to the present the player with something to explore, entertain and similar "not necessarily" challenges. (remember the different player types in the DMG I would list them If I had the book handy ... well at least in the 4e DMG) not everyone is at the table with identical motivations... only catering to one limits you.

 

[Garthanos]

Ah, now this is interesting, and may explain some of the disconnect.

See, IMHO the whole point of the game is to entertain the group (players and DM alike). The game's challenges are there to entertain -- but like many things, if you take them beyond a certain point, they just become work.

That point, between fun challenge and work, is going to vary from person to person.

Cheers, -- N

Heh you beat me to the punch.

 

[Desdichado]

Right, and I don't find puzzles entertaining.

Maybe that's my background coming at RPGs as a fan of fantasy fiction. How many times do fictional characters you read about stop in the middle of a "dungeon" and solve "puzzles?" Unless you only read D&D fiction (and even then), probably not a whole heck of a lot.

So to me, a lot of the paradigm of playing D&D, especially the dungeoncrawling aspect of it, is jarringly gamist, and therefore not fun. Same thing with having superpowers useable at will.

One thing that I don't think's been mentioned yet is that so-called "grim and gritty" settings is really a relative descriptor. What is "grim and gritty" for D&D is not in fiction, and fiction that played out like D&D would seem bizarre.

In case we needed another reason pointed out why both players and GMs might prefer that style.

 

[Garthanos]

Same thing with having superpowers useable at will.

Heh and for me... being a 34 year old apprentice who instantly forgets even the simplist things that he knows so you have to throw darts or pick up a crossbow is jarring... to each there own.

 

[Andor]

Right, and I don't find puzzles entertaining.

Maybe that's my background coming at RPGs as a fan of fantasy fiction. How many times do fictional characters you read about stop in the middle of a "dungeon" and solve "puzzles?" Unless you only read D&D fiction (and even then), probably not a whole heck of a lot.

Off the top of my head... The riddle game with Gollum, The doorway into moria. Sinbad dealing with the genie. Ali Baba dicovering the key to the magic cave. The Sphinx.

You must read diffferent fiction than I read.

 

[The Shaman]

Off the top of my head... The riddle game with Gollum, The doorway into moria. Sinbad dealing with the genie. Ali Baba dicovering the key to the magic cave. The Sphinx.

You must read diffferent fiction than I read.

I'm afraid I'm out of experience to award, so I'll simply say, excellent reply.