Why do DM's like Dark, gritty worlds and players the opposite?

[Snoweel]

If there is a correllation, which is not something that I believe, then there is only a correllation because it's easier to be that kind of poor GM in a grim and gritty world. The two complement each other in some ways.

However, that in no way means that poor GMing and grim and gritty worlds go hand in hand

That's exactly what it means.

If there's a correlation (and I believe we agree that whether or not there is a correlation is a matter of opinion) then the two by necessity go hand in hand.

and misidentifying the problem as the tone of the game rather than poor DMing remains just as much a problem.

I would argue that attempting to establish the two as unrelated is the real problem here.

Correllation, contrary to what you imply, does not mean causality.

I am in no way implying that the one is the cause of the other, and your stating so appears to be a convenient strawman.

Correllation could exist for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with causality.

Wrong.

If there is a correlation then there is an underlying cause somewhere.

And for the record; I'm still speaking hypothetically. I don't even believe that correllation exists.

Fair enough. Even though I do believe there is an obvious correlation I am also speaking hypothetically.

Incorrect. Or perhaps more accurately - insufficiently proven. Correlation alone does not imply causation.

See above.

I never used the term 'causation'. What I did say, however, is that if there is a correlation then there is a problem.

That is, if there is a correlation between grim-and-dark play and poor GMing then grim-and-dark play is problematic.

Consider - lots, perhaps most, people who have lung cancer have spent a lot of time with butane lighters in their pockets. Definite correlation. But do butane lighters cause cancer? No.

Although I am a professional analyst I still thank you for your parable about correlation. You're like some kind of modern day geek Messiah.

For the record, I smoke and do not have lung cancer. Neither do any of my friends who smoke (as far as I know).

In my anecdotal experience then there is no correlation between smoking and lung cancer is there?

However it appears that close to 100% of us take far too many breaks, according to our non-smoking colleagues.

There is no proof of causality here but it is clear that the correlation means that smoking is clearly problematic.

And interestingly, I may be the only smoker I know who believes that smoking does impact on work performance. In keeping with the parable theme, all the others seem to firmly believe that "their players love playing in their dark-and-gritty campaign".

 

[Desdichado]

Yeah, well if you haven't established what the cause is, merely pointing out the correlation, you haven't really accomplished much, have you? And if you overcompensate and falsely blame the correlated variable, then if you've accomplished something, it's the wrong thing.

Either way, I don't know where you're trying to go with this.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I'm afraid I'm out of experience to award, so I'll simply say, excellent reply.

Covered.

(Also comes up in ERB and REH)

 

[The Shaman]

Covered.

Thanks!

 

[Ariosto]

White Wolf's Exalted is an interesting case: epically dark and gritty world, superheroic player-characters. As is standard with WW, aspiring-novelist STing (by the "Story Teller") -- and playing by players -- seem pretty much assumed.

Although the PCs are immune to disease and other unpleasantnesses, they are in the position of hunted pariahs. Plus, an astounding mess of truly huge problems is in the pipeline -- seemingly way too much even for half a thousand demigods -- and the big gods have charged the PCs with trying to make the world a better place.

My impression is that a lot of players like it bunches.

 

[aboyd]

Of course, there are other reasons to skip through that other than "player laziness" or lack of imagination, or whatever it is that you're implying the problem is exactly.

Notably, it's tedious, boring, slow, and... again... boring.

Not to me. Just thought I'd note that players out there like this stuff. Boring is subjective.

 

[Desdichado]

Not to me. Just thought I'd note that players out there like this stuff. Boring is subjective.

Yes.... again, thank you for that insight.

Folks, for the record (again) that was my opinion. I already know that spending half an hour of game searching the room is not objectively boring.

 

[Ariosto]

"Well, you didn't specifically say that you looked in the third alcove, behind the piled-up darkmantle droppings, with the elf or at least someone else who has infravision, so you don't find the treasure in this room! Ha!"

I assume that's meant as an interior monologue? It would make no sense to tell the players!

Players: "Just assume that we look everywhere!"
GM: "Okay ..."

"Well, you didn't specifically say that you did not look behind the cabinet, which required moving it ... so you set off the trap!"

Look, it's about having enough decision points so that one can actually play a game instead of being reduced to a dice-rolling or DM-driven automaton.

 

[The Shaman]

Players: "Just assume that we look everywhere!"
GM: "Okay ..."

"Well, you didn't specifically say that you did not look behind the cabinet, which required moving it ... so you set off the trap!"

Nice.

Look, it's about having enough decision points so that one can actually play a game instead of being reduced to a dice-rolling or DM-driven automaton.

Agreed.

 

[Ariosto]

I already know that spending half an hour of game searching the room is not objectively boring.

It's not even at issue! Half an hour? Seriously? When?

On the other hand, half an hour seems about the bare minimum in 4e for a combat encounter. I have seen a player fall asleep waiting for his turn, and the tedium is certainly not my idea of a good D&D game.

In old D&D, we go about 10 to 15 minutes per encounter (which could be exploring a single room with some interesting features to investigate, or a bloody battle). A really major event would be more like 20 to 30 minutes.

We sure as heck don't crawl along looking for secret doors and traps in every square foot of dungeon. We don't just wander about and loiter in one random room after another until wandering monsters attack us. We go in with an objective to accomplish.