Why DO Other Games Sell Less?

Scribble said:
So, apparently D&D is a huge force in the RPG market. It's the big seller, and other games just sell less... Why is this? What gives D&D such a huge spot in the market? Is it just because it was first? Because of its history?

Not because its a easy, realistic, fast to learn system, nope, cuz it's not that

it's all because it's famous, thats it, and thats all, it's a brand name,
and how many other rpg's can the guy on the street name?, other than D&D?
most likely none,


Scribble said:
D&D is my favorite game, and always has been, but I'm not really sure why...

Anyone else have any idea?

Guessing that's personal taste,


Scribble said:
Would the RPG "industry" exist if D&D stopped existing? (I'm not predicting doom, just a question.) Would it have died out altogether if WOTC had not purchased D&D back in 96, and TSR went under?

What?? lol,

That would be a no, :\
 

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Scribble said:
What about wizkids? (are they still doing shadowrun?)
It's Fanpro that handles Shadowrun RPG for Wizkids, and you haven't filled out your Enies ballot yet? Because they are nominated in a couple of catagories. Version 4 came out last GenCon and so far they've gone through 3 printings of the core book, plus the 1,000 limited editions of the core book and PDF version (still at around #15 on RPG DriveThru I think 1 year later). So selling fairly well. This GenCon they are bringing out the extended magic rules, which brings together pretty much all the magic rules that were in all the SR3 supplement books under the one book, on top of the extra magic in the core book beyond what the SR3 core had.

But I think that underlines the position D&D is in with the marketing that money and previous #1 spot gives them. Could you imagine anyone in RPGs not living under a rock not hearing about a new version release muchless not hearing about it for a year?

P.S. Incidentally Wizkids has basically discontinued the Shadowrun line Heroclix as nothing new is coming out. Basically they couldn't make that mini's only crossover from an RPG fly on it's own.
 
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Scribble said:
Take the video game industry... There are several different styles of games, and game makers, but is there one like dominant game maker, and the rest just follow along?

Actually, there are no leaders and video game companies line up in a circle and just follow the company to their left.
 

reanjr said:
Actually, there are no leaders and video game companies line up in a circle and just follow the company to their left.
I disagree. In video games there are leaders within genres that other companies follow: say, Rockstar in open-ended thug games, EA (because of exclusive licensing) in sports games, Blizzard (this week) in MMORPGS, Square Enix in CRPGs, etc. The difference here though is you are only as good as your last game sold. If someone releases a better selling game in the genre, everyone starts following the new guy.

RPGs lacks the huge media presence to have games that pander to reviewers. :)
 

I like D&D for a couple reasons.

1) Fantasy. Ever since I first saw Conan way back in the day, it made an impression on me. I was 10 years old. If it's has any of the following themes I don't want any thing to do with it: Modern, future, sci-fi, steam punk. That leaves D&D and the now d20 offshoots. Conan, Arcanis, WoW, AE, Iron Heroes, Scarred Lands, Black Company, Thieves' World, Warlord.

2) Easy to find a group of gamers who play D&D/d20.
 

Ryan Dancey said:
Here's the logic in a nutshell. We've got a theory that says that D&D is the most popular roleplaying game because it is the game more people know how to play than any other game. (For those of you interested researching the theory, this concept is called "The Theory of Network Externalities.")
[snip]

If you accept (as I have finally come to do) that the theory is valid, then the logical conclusion is that the larger the number of people who play D&D, the harder it is for competitive games to succeed, and the longer people will stay active gamers, and the more value the network of D&D players will have to Wizards of the Coast.

Just a nitpick, here: he makes 3 conclusions from the initial premise:
  • Given: the more people who play a given game, the easier it is to find players for that game
  • Therefore, the more people who play D&D:
  • (1) The harder it is for competitive games to succeed
  • (2) The longer people will stay active gamers
  • (3) The more value the network of D&D players will have [to WotC]

(3) is a direct application of the notion of Network Externalities. Seems reasonable.
(1) is using the Skaff effect (unstated in the above quote) to extrapolate from the Network Externalities to the notion that it is specifically finding existing players for a game that is necessary for the game's success (as opposed to creating new players). That is a reasonable, but not necessarily correct, theory. It is at least reasonable that the former effect tends to dwarf the latter in the real world.

But (2) is an unfounded statement. It assumes that a playerbase of 5N will lead to the existing players sticking around longer than a playerbase of N. A reasonable assumption if most gamers are regularly switching groups, and thus needing to find new players. If, on the other hand, most gamers find a group they like and stick with it for years or decades, then it doesn't matter how many other players there are out there, when judging how long a given player sticks with the game. Obviously, in the real world, we have a mix of those two behaviors: lots of people stick with a group for many years, but many (even most) of them eventually find themselves in a situation where they need to find new gamers; while some people regularly need to find new gamers for one reason or another. It is not a provable conclusion of the Network Externalities theory that existing players stick around more, as the playerbase gets larger, just that new players are easier to recruit.

Now, it is true that you can make a derivation that, since it's easier to recruit new players, when the existing players do eventually need to find new players, the network externalities will make the job easier. But that, again, assumes something--namely, that those who can't find players of the game they want to play, won't play at all. That they will cease being gamers. Which goes against the notion that the theory is founded on: that the game doesn't matter, the network matters. I.e., that what matters is finding other gamers, and the specific game is a secondary concern. After all, if people have strong game system preferences, then choosing to switch games to the dominant game is not an option. And if they don't have strong game system preferences (as posited by the theory), then switching away from the dominant game is an option. So, there's no need to posit that those who can't find their particular game will cease being players, even in the case of the dominant system.

Certainly, my experience has been that the network in question is one of gamers, not D&D players. And i've found it much easier to keep the existing players and switch games, than to keep the existing game and switch players. IOW, most RPGs, despite differences in system, have more in common than they have differences, so the playerbase is roughly as large as all RPG players, rather than just those who have previously played whatever system you're playing. Yes, people have game preferences. But, in practice, their first choice seems to be to play an enjoyable game with people they enjoy gaming with, and the system is secondary (didn't even Diaglo play a D&D3E game at one point?). Just as the theory of network externalities claims. But, that therefore means that it doesn't matter which game they can find, so long as they can find a game.

Or, mathematically, i see no evidence that games with market shares of 90N, 9N, and N generate a larger total pool of players than games with market shares of 50N, 30N, and 20N. If it is, say, 4th-order scaling, the theory of network externalities claims network values of 65million, 6500, and 1, vs. 6.5million, 800000, and 160000. But i think it's closer to 100million in both cases. It may even be that the ratios between them are proportional to the 4th order, but i don't see any basis to the claim that the total market would be smaller with a less-dominant game, which seems to be the consequence of the theory of network externalities, as applied by Dancey. That is, the heavily-skewed market divisions don't diminish or increase the overall value of the network, just change the share it gets. Maybe the latter case ends up as 56million, 7million, 2million--still disproportionately favor of the bigger share, but with the total market just as big as it was when the market was more skewed.
 

Umbran said:
So, there's a second part to the story - it is actually a pretty good game. Much as we chew over it's faults a lot here, it also has a great deal of merit in and of itself, both in terms of current structure and long-term style.

And, in fact, despite my previous post in this thread, i think this speaks to the strength of something other than the system. But not just the network of players, either. I think it speaks to the popularity/functionality of the style of play D&D engenders. It's not the ruleset that keeps it popular; it's the "going adventuring" in a morally-quantified world, with characters that get Kewl Powerz and Neet Stuf, and encounter new and fantastic situations. By this standard, AD&D2 neither helped nor hurt the popularity, because the fact that the rules were sub-par was a non-issue. Likewise, it doesn't matter how great (general opinion) or lousy (my opinion) the D&D3E rules are, so long as they continue to facilitate this sort of play.
 

Ogrork the Mighty said:
How about that D&D is just a better game than many other RPGs. Plain and simple. D&D has been around for 30+ years; that's a lot of time to refine your product.

All this hocus-pocus about marketing and rule sets is fine and all, but if your core product isn't a popular one, you just won't be around for very long.

Not at all true. A product needs to be sufficiently good for its task, it does not need to be better than the competition. VHS wasn't better than Betamax, but it was good enough that those who had VHS didn't feel any need to upgrade. Prior to Windows XP, MSWindows was definitely not as good as other OSes but, for most people, it was deemed good enough. [I'm not convinced it's better now, but will accept that it's a less-clear-cut case, and we don't need to try to hash it out here.]

Similarly, it doesn't matter if there's someone out there who could give me a better deal on cellphone service, or a tastier slice of pizza, or whatever, because i'm not unhappy with what i've got. If being the very best was necessary, many current market leaders never would've gotten to that position in the first place. Several still aren't the best in their market (through relatively objective measures), while others certainly weren't the best in their market when they achieved their dominance, even if they are now.
 

Glyfair said:
Secondly, many of us don't have time to be jumping from game to game. Real life intrudes, and just getting together a group to game on a regular basis can be a challenge. Learning a new game and experimenting is much, much less attractive.

You're making the same false assumption that many proponents of the D20 System do: that all systems are equally difficult and time-consuming to learn. I've read, figured out, taught to the other members of the group, and gotten ready for (creating characters, whatever) some systems in less time than it takes to prep a night's play for my high-level D&D game. Heck, this was true when it was a mid-level D&D game. This was not true, however, for AD&D2 (that is, the prep time for AD&D2 was so much lower than most D20 System stuff that finding a whole new game i could learn and prepare in the same amount of time it took me to prep an evening of AD&D2 play is much harder). For that matter, it took us less time/effort to start up a game of Primetime Adventures, Dust Devils, and With Great Power…, than it did to get up to speed on Iron Heroes (despite being familiar with D&D3E and AU). Switching systems is not always as much of a burden as you make it out to be, just with more-complex systems. "i'm not gonna switch systems" is a reasonable response to the time 'wasted' in switching; "let's only switch to systems that don't waste much time" is an equally-reasonable response. And, as i've said above, with at least some groups (and my group is *not* a bunch of experienced RPers--two have only played the 3 or so systems i've played with them), the effort to switch to a simple system could be less than that involved in leveling up and preping the next adventure.
 

woodelf said:
You're making the same false assumption that many proponents of the D20 System do: that all systems are equally difficult and time-consuming to learn. I've read, figured out, taught to the other members of the group, and gotten ready for (creating characters, whatever) some systems in less time than it takes to prep a night's play for my high-level D&D game. Heck, this was true when it was a mid-level D&D game.
I think you mix up time burdens of players and time burdens of DMs. True, DMs can often save lots of time by switching to different systems. But players often lose time with switching. Just leveling their own character is something that takes only a fraction of time compared to preparing an adventure, and the former is often not seen as work but as fun. Learning a new system is often seen as unnecessary work from the players' side. They don't save much of their minimal work load.
 

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