Why do RPGs have rules?

Purposes:
Narrativists prioritise ruthlessly addressing premises.
Simulationists prioritise elevating their appreciation and understanding of subject.

Dichotomies:
In what moments of play are these dichotomous?

Both nar and sim can pre-load, or find out in play and then conform with, all sorts of causes. What nar can't see pre-loaded is theme: how premises are answered in play. Sim either must pre-load theme (insert reasons) or has no particular position on pre-loading theme (which can wind up in the same place.)

A missing argument is why sim needs to pre-load theme? Can sim give that up and still find ways to elevate appreciation and understanding of subject? Could finding out theme in play promote said elevation?!

The majority of the hard-line narrativist games have few, if any, preloaded consequences for specific actions. They generally prescribe when consequences happen; the nature is usually left to the group or GM.
Simulationist games have preloaded consequences for a variety of specific actions. Generally, they prescribe when to check and what the consequences are.
Gamist designs tend to have consequences baked in similar to simulationist, but don't prioritize realism; instead, they prioritize actual impediment balance.

Simulationist designs tend to build concrete labels and their scopes are mechanical, but also are encouraged to be used for extrapolation.
Narrativist designs tend to leave definitions to the group to parse.
Gamist designs look similar to simulationist, but do not encourage extrapolations.
 

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Below is a quick example of what is not good enough for a Simulationist game. Eight settlements in The Territories for Mouse Guard. I'm doing a quick write-up for the players of each to anchor our GM Turns, Player Turns, and free play (where we sort out the upcoming Mission and develop our own setting and its conflicts).

COPPERWOOD

Location: Mid-territories, south of Lockhaven, one of the oldest cities is built inside, below, and to the top boughs of a large oak.

Description: Governor leads the democratic bureaucracy and is elected by the council of elders who represent the wide variety of trades in the city. In the upper boughs lookouts surveil for predators, mice, and weather-watch. Living quarters and trades carve out the space of the mid-low trunk and are aided by the help of skinks. Tunnels underneath access the waterfall, mines, and harvesting avenues.

Wilderness/Dangers: Forest, lakes and ponds, brambles and thorns, animals, rocky terrain.

Locales/Landmarks: Lookout Tower, Copperwood Falls, The Coin Mint, Tradehall.

Trades: Mining, harvesting, milling, carpentry, minting, smithing.\

Imports: Food, clothing, refined goods.

Exports: Metal and related craftwork.

Plenty of NPC templates in the books to create and employ NPCs as needed. All else we need to play is (a) the rules engine and its faithful, skillful usage (GMed and played), (b) the general premise of Mouse Guard, and (c) the Beliefs, Instincts, Goals, Relations of the 3 members of The Guard.

Good enough for Narrativism (with a nice chunk of Gamism but certainly not in the realm of Torchbearer as TB takes this engine and turns it up to 11). Not good enough for Simulationism (where is the elaborate metaplot and its march-o-continuity, the deep canon that must be uploaded and deployed and revealed, both of which would be the exploratory focus of play).
 

The primary difference I am seeing between the narrative play you guys are describing and the ‘sun’ of rob and myself is in both players can do what they want and the GM has to react but in our games players tend to be more limited to acting through their character alone (this is a somewhat sloppy generalization though) abd the GM is expected to bring some amount of world consistency to the experience. Pre-loading can be as present or non-present according to taste (if I understand the term correctly). I have run plenty of games like this with zero preloading. Also Dragonlance modules while I am fine with them do not reflect our style well at all. If anything it a style seeking to avoid those type of adventures
 

Below is a quick example of what is not good enough for a Simulationist game. Eight settlements in The Territories for Mouse Guard. I'm doing a quick write-up for the players of each to anchor our GM Turns, Player Turns, and free play (where we sort out the upcoming Mission and develop our own setting and its conflicts).



Plenty of NPC templates in the books to create and employ NPCs as needed. All else we need to play is (a) the rules engine and its faithful, skillful usage (GMed and played), (b) the general premise of Mouse Guard, and (c) the Beliefs, Instincts, Goals, Relations of the 3 members of The Guard.

Good enough for Narrativism (with a nice chunk of Gamism but certainly not in the realm of Torchbearer as TB takes this engine and turns it up to 11). Not good enough for Simulationism (where is the elaborate metaplot and its march-o-continuity, the deep canon that must be uploaded and deployed and revealed, both of which would be the exploratory focus of play).

I am not seeing this. You don't have to have mountains of prep for the style we are talking about here. And simulationist is such a broad category (but given that GNS only has those three, S is the closest to what me and Rob are describing I think----though I also think there is a good does of G in there too). There is absolutely nothing wrong with making new NPCs on the fly, using templates for NPCs, having bare bones descriptions of regions as a starting point (look at most OSR material for example, it prizes brevity and bare bones descriptions).

The description you gave is actually kind of ideal for this approach because it avoids prose and paragraphs in favor of key words which a GM can easily use to elaborate on (knowing trades and imports for example is something I find incredibly helpful and I don't need the book or my notes to break down each and every one of them-------in some games I may want to go further and elaborate before play but it is not needed).

I can't comment on Mouseguard specifically as I haven't played that system But that area description would be perfectly useable in the kind of games I run (and I am sure Rob could make plenty of use of it as well----though I don't want to put words in his mouth).

I've run a lot of on the fly sessions where the world is created in response to what the players do (they may not have narrative power like they would if I were running Hillfolk, but they go someone ask if there are any X and I decide if any X are there-----usually a variety of means to do so----and the world expands as they push the boundaries and the world and NPCs in it react to them.
 

The primary difference I am seeing between the narrative play you guys are describing and the ‘sun’ of rob and myself is in both players can do what they want and the GM has to react but in our games players tend to be more limited to acting through their character alone (this is a somewhat sloppy generalization though) abd the GM is expected to bring some amount of world consistency to the experience. Pre-loading can be as present or non-present according to taste (if I understand the term correctly). I have run plenty of games like this with zero preloading. Also Dragonlance modules while I am fine with them do not reflect our style well at all. If anything it a style seeking to avoid those type of adventures
Are you suggesting that narrativist players aren't interacting with the game world at least primarily through the avatar of their character? That's ... a pretty extreme claim. It sounds like you think that some sort of meta game concerns are more central to narrativist play than the characters.
 

Are you suggesting that narrativist players aren't interacting with the game world at least primarily through the avatar of their character? That's ... a pretty extreme claim. It sounds like you think that some sort of meta game concerns are more central to narrativist play than the characters.

I don't. And I am not. I am just responding to what Pemerton and Manbearcat are describing and trying to discern the difference. I may well be incorrect in my assessment. But my main point really is they are describing sim in a way that I don't think Rob nor I play RPGs (something about their break down of it seems very off to me). I am totally open to my breakdown of their style being off too.

I am trying to respond to statements like "Narrativism, as per its other label "story now", is premised on the avoidance of such pre-loading. Players get to make their choice in the moment; the GM gets to riff on that; back-and-forth."

This happens in simulationist play as well is my point. The only limit is you generally are stuck doing it through your character in a manner that is diegetic (though again this is a very sloppy generalization). I am not implying that the opposite is true for narrative play (not being an expert narrative style GM or player, I don't think I can truly say what the parameters of that style are). My point is more about the bolded also largely being how most sandbox games in a living world are run. I was just careful to identity where the limits generally are around the riffing.

And to be clear, I think characters matter in both types of games. Even in games with metaresources or ones where you aren't limited to acting through your character (for example in Hillfolk where what your character says can become true in the setting), character is still central to play (which I think makes sense since characters are essential to a good story).

Now I may misunderstand what preloading means. But reading his explanation it just didn't seem to really match our style of play that much (or at least it described it in a way that minimized the amount of riffing and improv that arises)
 

I am not seeing this. You don't have to have mountains of prep for the style we are talking about here. And simulationist is such a broad category (but given that GNS only has those three, S is the closest to what me and Rob are describing I think----though I also think there is a good does of G in there too). There is absolutely nothing wrong with making new NPCs on the fly, using templates for NPCs, having bare bones descriptions of regions as a starting point (look at most OSR material for example, it prizes brevity and bare bones descriptions).

The description you gave is actually kind of ideal for this approach because it avoids prose and paragraphs in favor of key words which a GM can easily use to elaborate on (knowing trades and imports for example is something I find incredibly helpful and I don't need the book or my notes to break down each and every one of them-------in some games I may want to go further and elaborate before play but it is not needed).

I can't comment on Mouseguard specifically as I haven't played that system But that area description would be perfectly useable in the kind of games I run (and I am sure Rob could make plenty of use of it as well----though I don't want to put words in his mouth).

I've run a lot of on the fly sessions where the world is created in response to what the players do (they may not have narrative power like they would if I were running Hillfolk, but they go someone ask if there are any X and I decide if any X are there-----usually a variety of means to do so----and the world expands as they push the boundaries and the world and NPCs in it react to them.

Ok, take that entry above. Now:

* Add 7 more like it.

* Take like a 2 sentence premise for the conflict-charged setting.

* Take codified, table-facing procedures for GM’s Turn, Player’s Turn, Tests/Failure, Conflicts, Mission generation and Obstacle handling.

* Take PC build with 4 touchstones (Belief, Instinct, Relations, Goal) that Missions and their obstacles challenge and interact with.

* Take an advancement and prologue and post-session scheme that is about thematic rewards/currency.

* Now just run the structured playloop over and over and see what emerges. That is the whole game. Not a detour. Not an interlude or side quest. Not a part of the game. The whole game.




No metaplot, its continuity, its breadcrumbs and player-hooking, its reveals.

No game-orbiting, action declaration-vetting cannon and backstory.

No “do I know(?)” by the players.

No concern over economic modeling, exchange-rates, etc.




The GM is active and reactive in Mouse Guard (just like they would be in a Simulation-oriented game). Its the other stuff above and the “how much reactive vs active” formulation and what type/kind of each. And the “system’s say” is a huge component of that.
 

Ok, take that entry above. Now:

* Add 7 more like it.

Seven more would be totally fine. Again this format strikes me as perfect of sandbox play

* Take like a 2 sentence premise for the conflict-charged setting.

That isn't a problem either. That is totally fine as far as I can see

* Take codified, table-facing procedures for GM’s Turn, Player’s Turn, Tests/Failure, Conflicts, Mission generation and Obstacle handling.

I will need you to define table facing procedures for me.

In a sandbox the mission is whatever the players want to pursue. But it can also arise from things like tables, interactions with NPCs, etc. I think if you could elaborate more on each of these I might have a better handle on the distinction.

* Take PC build with 4 touchstones (Belief, Instinct, Relations, Goal) that Missions and their obstacles challenge and interact with.

Without knowing the system specifics it is hard to see whether this would be an issue in the kinds of sandbox games Rob and I are talking about (and if it would be an issue for all sandbox GMs or just some)

* Take an advancement and prologue and post-session scheme that is about thematic rewards/currency.

I would need to see the specifics. I think generally you will find most people are wary of thematic concepts in sandbox but it does depend on what you mean by that. Prologue and post session scheme I am going to need defined as the specifics would also matter. I often incorporate a session zero as a kind of prologue. Not every sandbox GM does this. But I would need to understand what this means in the way you are using it

* Now just run the structured playloop over and over and see what emerges. That is the whole game. Not a detour. Not an interlude or side quest. Not a part of the game. The whole game.

One area where there probably is division is on this concept of play loop. You don't see a lot of sandbox GMs talking about play loops (though I have seen people refer to the play loops that might exist in them). I tend to avoid this as I am more interested in just the natural flow of things than putting a play loop structure to it. But again it would depend on what you mean.




No metaplot, its continuity, its breadcrumbs and player-hooking, its reveals.

No game-orbiting, action declaration-vetting cannon and backstory.

No “do I know(?)” by the players.

No concern over economic modeling, exchange-rates, etc.

This is a lot and you lay each thing down as a single term so it is a little hard to know what you mean by each of them (keep in mind we may both use these terms but in different ways because of the circles we tend to communicate in and some of the language you use is not familiar to me, even if I have heard it I may not have the specific level of understanding you do around it).

Metaplot is somewhat charged in sandbox circles because we tend to see it as being about the metaphor (edit: meant to type "metaplot") of a setting done in a way that is intended to sell new books (I.e. the grand conjunction in Ravenloft). There is a concept of the world in motion in sandbox where history unfolds. But that can be handled any number of ways, and gets different levels of emphasis from different GMs

I am not sure what you mean by game orbiting so I would need a definition of that term. I think I can guess at it but I don't want to spend time going down a road that is an incorrect interpretation of it.

In terms of continuity what sandbox seeks is a coherent world where things are consistent and make sense. But very few GMs who do sandbox are into breadcrumbs and reveals I think.

'Do I know?' definitely happens in sandbox. It isn't the only way things are handled (some just use things like knowledge skill rolls, some have gray areas where the player can decide what they know). But on the whole one important rule of thumb in sandbox is occupy a finite space in the game setting, through your character, and the players don't have narrative control outside that. Which means you sometimes have to ask the GM what you know.

Economic modeling and exchange rates those are a matter of taste. Some people get deep into that. I was always a huge history person but not at all into economics. In fact I just use modern prices in most of my games now because that is what I and my players intuitively grasp (I find it easier for inn prices to be the same as a night at a hotel for instance and for meals to cost what they would at a restaurant-----people know what to expect and immerse in the world better in my experience). Now that isn't particularly real to history, but I am done trying to square ancient price lists with the costs of goods. I do often draw on mercantile and trade history books though for important details that come up.





The GM is active and reactive in Mouse Guard (just like they would be in a Simulation-oriented game). Its the other stuff above and the “how much reactive vs active” formulation and what type/kind of each. And the “system’s say” is a huge component of that.

Sure, I expect there to be differences. My point is just that the heart of a good sandbox is this riffing that arises as the GM reacts to the players and the players react to the GM. And I would also say system matters a good deal in a sandbox. As do procedures. They are often just not rigid. There is an idea that the reality of the world can trump those things (but again that is a sloppy generalization because many GMs who do sandbox also run them RAW with a strict adherence to procedures). And for all my talk about rulings, which I think are important, I tend to constantly go to the rules and run them as written, rely heavily on tables, procedures, etc. And I am strictly let the dice fall where they may, roll out in the open.
 
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Seven more would be totally fine. Again this format strikes me as perfect of sandbox play



That isn't a problem either. That is totally fine as far as I can see



I will need you to define table facing procedures for me.

In a sandbox the mission is whatever the players want to pursue. But it can also arise from things like tables, interactions with NPCs, etc. I think if you could elaborate more on each of these I might have a better handle on the distinction.



Without knowing the system specifics it is hard to see whether this would be an issue in the kinds of sandbox games Rob and I are talking about (and if it would be an issue for all sandbox GMs or just some)



I would need to see the specifics. I think generally you will find most people are wary of thematic concepts in sandbox but it does depend on what you mean by that. Prologue and post session scheme I am going to need defined as the specifics would also matter. I often incorporate a session zero as a kind of prologue. Not every sandbox GM does this. But I would need to understand what this means in the way you are using it



One area where there probably is division is on this concept of play loop. You don't see a lot of sandbox GMs talking about play loops (though I have seen people refer to the play loops that might exist in them). I tend to avoid this as I am more interested in just the natural flow of things than putting a play loop structure to it. But again it would depend on what you mean.



This is a lot and you lay each thing down as a single term so it is a little hard to know what you mean by each of them (keep in mind we may both use these terms but in different ways because of the circles we tend to communicate in and some of the language you use is not familiar to me, even if I have heard it I may not have the specific level of understanding you do around it).

Metaplot is somewhat charged in sandbox circles because we tend to see it as being about the metaphor (edit: meant to type "metaplot") of a setting done in a way that is intended to sell new books (I.e. the grand conjunction in Ravenloft). There is a concept of the world in motion in sandbox where history unfolds. But that can be handled any number of ways, and gets different levels of emphasis from different GMs

I am not sure what you mean by game orbiting so I would need a definition of that term. I think I can guess at it but I don't want to spend time going down a road that is an incorrect interpretation of it.

In terms of continuity what sandbox seeks is a coherent world where things are consistent and make sense. But very few GMs who do sandbox are into breadcrumbs and reveals I think.

'Do I know?' definitely happens in sandbox. It isn't the only way things are handled (some just use things like knowledge skill rolls, some have gray areas where the player can decide what they know). But on the whole one important rule of thumb in sandbox is occupy a finite space in the game setting, through your character, and the players don't have narrative control outside that. Which means you sometimes have to ask the GM what you know.

Economic modeling and exchange rates those are a matter of taste. Some people get deep into that. I was always a huge history person but not at all into economics. In fact I just use modern prices in most of my games now because that is what I and my players intuitively grasp (I find it easier for inn prices to be the same as a night at a hotel for instance and for meals to cost what they would at a restaurant-----people know what to expect and immerse in the world better in my experience). Now that isn't particularly real to history, but I am done trying to square ancient price lists with the costs of goods. I do often draw on mercantile and trade history books though for important details that come up.




Sure, I expect there to be differences. My point is just that the heart of a good sandbox is this riffing that arises as the GM reacts to the players and the players react to the GM. And I would also say system matters a good deal in a sandbox. As do procedures. They are often just not rigid. There is an idea that the reality of the world can trump those things (but again that is a sloppy generalization because many GMs who do sandbox also run them RAW with a strict adherence to procedures). And for all my talk about rulings, which I think are important, I tend to constantly go to the rules and run them as written, rely heavily on tables, procedures, etc. And I am strictly let the dice fall where they may, roll out in the open.

Don't have time to comment in deep. So a quick glossary to confirm what I suspect you likely had in mind and a comment or two:

Table-facing procedures: No secret way of doing anything that only the GM knows or comes up with on the spot. Its all there and every participant at the table knows it and all the time. When the state of the game goes from a to b, nothing about that is a mystery. Sable, clear, transparent, out-in-the-open. An epithet you've surely heard is "that is board-gamey!"

Play Loop: Step 1 > Step 2 > Step 3 > Step 4 > Back to Step 1. Rinse & repeat. While the content of play changes, while the characters change, the stuff you do and who does what stuff repeats. Over and over. Until we're done.

Orbiting Continuity/Canon/Backstory/Metaplots: PC-independent stuff that is ultimately the center of play. At conception of play, this prepped stuff "gravitationally captures" future play. Future play orbits this stuff. "Here is the menu of PC-build or evinced-player-interest independent things to do (hooks, goings-ons, intrigues, mysteries, overarching conflicts, side quests)." "Oh, you declared that action...well let me check my notes to see what happens or whether or not that action is even permissible." Player: "Do I know about <NPC, backstory, faction, etc>?"

The inverse would be content orbiting PC-build or player-evinced-goal/interest.

PC-build dependent: Content that is generated is not independent of PC build or outright spoken player interest. For Mouse Guard, content generated engages with a PC Belief, Instinct, Goal, or Relationship.




Economic modeling is a generic stand-in for any preoccupation where game content (and possibly game engine resolution stuff) is concerned with simulating setting stuff that is independent of conflict-charged content that centers around challenging the thematic aspects of PC build or the evinced dramatic needs that the player has declared for their character. Players are going to spend time managing decision-trees/declaring actions, and might even allocate PC build resources, that are the equivalent of sorting out exchange rates for currency or extrapolating granular speed : time relationships for overland travel rates to set up a potential intercept point on a map for a caravan or something. Its the type of stuff and the weight of it upon the balance of play, not the exact example.

On the Settlement entry above. My guess is your sandbox games don't have 8 of those entries above and that is it. My guess is you have 8 of those entries above + some level of canonical backstory and continuity (likely multiple of these that are concentric or layered or independent from one another) that marches forward through play that is PC-independent + a stable of PC-independent plot hooks/intrigues/side quests/NPC & or Faction arcs. You have a fairly high resolution setting conception at the outset of play that is independent of player input and independent of PC-build input and play features players exploring that setting; interacting with people and places and continuity that is related to this stuff that has been pre-generated > PCs going on quests where a sequence of actions and resolution and consequences take place to have this setting stuff change > character advancement > rinse and repeat (except possibly the PCs do follow-on stuff with that setting stuff they just changed because the players have become interested in exploring that to its conclusion).

Now and again, you may have a table to generate something live. But that something generated is, again, PC-build independent (or at least frequently if not perpetually).

No?
 

Don't have time to comment in deep. So a quick glossary to confirm what I suspect you likely had in mind and a comment or two:

Table-facing procedures: No secret way of doing anything that only the GM knows or comes up with on the spot. Its all there and every participant at the table knows it and all the time. When the state of the game goes from a to b, nothing about that is a mystery. Sable, clear, transparent, out-in-the-open. An epithet you've surely heard is "that is board-gamey!"

If I understand this correctly this can definitely occur in sandbox. It may not occur as it does in the kinds of games you prefer, but I often am very clear about what procedures I am using, how I am making decisions, etc. Even in cases where I have to make up a procedure on the fly my usual routine is to explain that process to the players and ask if they think it would fairly address what they are trying to do (and they often suggest changes that I incorporate). For me this just adds to the sense that everything is above board, and to the sense that the 'physics' of the world are legit (i.e. not just a product of me having outcomes I prefer)

Play Loop: Step 1 > Step 2 > Step 3 > Step 4 > Back to Step 1. Rinse & repeat. While the content of play changes, while the characters change, the stuff you do and who does what stuff repeats. Over and over. Until we're done.

This matches how I have heard the term. I suspect most sandbox GMs would consider this overly rigid. I also suspect you, Manebearcat, might watch a sandbox game and discern a play loop. So I don't know that it is not present or excluded so much as not part of how we conceive of play if that makes sense.

Orbiting Continuity/Canon/Backstory/Metaplots: PC-independent stuff that is ultimately the center of play. At conception of play, this prepped stuff "gravitationally captures" future play. Future play orbits this stuff. "Here is the menu of PC-build or evinced-player-interest independent things to do (hooks, goings-ons, intrigues, mysteries, overarching conflicts, side quests)." "Oh, you declared that action...well let me check my notes to see what happens or whether or not that action is even permissible." Player: "Do I know about <NPC, backstory, faction, etc>?"

I am still not sure I follow this one about orbiting.

There isn't a menu of hooks though. Again in sandbox the idea is you can do anything you want. The GM might provide possible starting points via conflicts that exist, and other details but the players can just press on and push for anything they want (again though usually limited through their characters).

Again the starting points you are emphasizing (which can exist in a sandbox) are largely more what you find in something like a traditional linear campaign or something. You don't push hooks on players, and you don't hadn't them a list. Occasionally stuff like a mystery will emerge I find but more often than not the adventures arise much more organically (and often conflicts are created as PCs interact with NPCs and groups).

I will say if the players declare an action, the action is always permitted in sandbox. What is not always certain is the outcome. They can't declare their action over the setting material for example (i.e. a player can't say "I assassinate the king and take his throne"----he could try to do those things but he wouldn't be able to declare such an outcome in most sandbox play).


The inverse would be content orbiting PC-build or player-evinced-goal/interest.

PC-build dependent: Content that is generated is not independent of PC build or outright spoken player interest. For Mouse Guard, content generated engages with a PC Belief, Instinct, Goal, or Relationship.

This is pretty optional in something like a sandbox. I do sandox+drama, and there is no problem introducing elements that connect to things the players have established about their characters (as an example a player wanted to explore a relationship with his character's long lost father and that became part of the campaign). Some sandbox players and GMs might bristle at this, but it isn't universal. And things like tables can tie specifically to these things. I have grudge tables for example. They are an important thing that makes my wuxia campaigns function and they always tie to things about the PCs (grudges can emerge in game, the player can establish them at character creation, etc).




Economic modeling is a generic stand-in for any preoccupation where game content (and possibly game engine resolution stuff) is concerned with simulating setting stuff that is independent of conflict-charged content that centers around challenging the thematic aspects of PC build or the evinced dramatic needs that the player has declared for their character. Players are going to spend time managing decision-trees/declaring actions, and might even allocate PC build resources, that are the equivalent of sorting out exchange rates for currency or extrapolating granular speed : time relationships for overland travel rates to set up a potential intercept point on a map for a caravan or something. Its the type of stuff and the weight of it upon the balance of play, not the exact example.


I have to be frank and say I just don't understand the language you are using here. So I don't think I can really respond to it in a way that is meaningful or devoid of confusion.

On the Settlement entry above. My guess is your sandbox games don't have 8 of those entries above and that is it. My guess is you have 8 of those entries above + some level of canonical backstory and continuity (likely multiple of these that are concentric or layered or independent from one another) that marches forward through play that is PC-independent + a stable of PC-independent plot hooks/intrigues/side quests/NPC & or Faction arcs.

Again this really varies. Like I said sometimes I have a lot of depth sometimes I have something closer to what you posted. I would say mostly these days my notes are more likely to resemble the example you gave. It can vary though

Things are never independent of the PCs. If the PCs are not engaging a particular area and something is going on there, it may march on without them. But I am usually more focused on the stuff and people going on around the PCs. Sometimes I roll randomly to see what is going on in the broader world or advance the historical timeline, but that still is all stuff the players could potentially influence if they chose to.

For factions I don't usually plan stuff out in an arc of any kind. If a conflict is going on, and the players are totally absent from that conflict, my default is to use tables or to roll opposing dice pools to see what the outcome is (and that stuff usually arises because of what the leadership are trying to do, not because I have a particular arc I want). And a lot of times the reason I even being thinking about that with a given group is because the players interacted with them in some way

You have a fairly high resolution setting conception at the outset of play that is independent of player input and independent of PC-build input and play features players exploring that setting; interacting with people and places and continuity that is related to this stuff that has been pre-generated > PCs going on quests where a sequence of actions and resolution and consequences take place to have this setting stuff change > character advancement > rinse and repeat (except possibly the PCs do follow-on stuff with that setting stuff they just changed because the players have become interested in exploring that to its conclusion).

I don't find this to be particularly the case. Yes there is often established setting material to fall back on for sure (dungeons are a useful thing to just have in the setting for instance). But a lot of what emerges is a result of play, not prep. I will often start with a number of of details hammered out for example. But that isn't a requirement. And the campaign doesn't begin and end with those things. It is entirely possible for example to want to run a wuxia campaign where there are 8 sects I have planned out in advance and the players never interact with a single one of them because they are more interested in exploring things I never thought of.

What I will say is it isn't Hillfolk. The players won't generate that setting material simply by narrating things. But stuff will be generated in response to where they are going, who they are seeking, what they want to do, etc.

Stuff like pre-generated quests are pretty rare for me and I think for a lot of sandbox GMs (this can vary tremendously though). I prefer adventures that arise organically. I don't like handing players quests. Sometimes players may do something that falls into that (i.e. hear about a legendary object and seek it out----and if they do where it can be found is something that would be determined based on either what makes sense or what is established). But those are pretty rare types of adventures.

I will say there are usually concrete things in the setting. But I get the senes that the way you imagine me and my players interact with those things is very different from how we do (a lot of your descriptions of sim play seem to resemble the kinds of adventures I remember being put out in the early to mid 90s by TSR for example, which are exactly the types of adventure structures most sandbox GMs are seeking to avoid).


Now and again, you may have a table to generate something live. But that something generated is, again, PC-build independent (or at least frequently if not perpetually).

Again I may not be 100% sure of what you mean, but this is not written in stone. I often build things around the PCs and connect them back to them. Not every GM does. I think if something like drama is important it is fair to incorporate threads from the PCs. But this is something that I think honestly varies a lot. In many sandbox discussions you sometimes encounter this platonic idea of a sandbox that is so realistic and so focused on naturalism that, for me at least, it wouldn't be very fun to play. I think the vast majority of sandbox GMs consider things like what the player characters were made to do, what types of things the players are interested in doing, etc. This may often need to be framed in naturalism, but it is still there. There are plenty of conceits to playability in sandboxes.



Again I am not so sure. It is possible I am not fully following the language and confusing your points. But if I follow any that I have been responding to, I think sandbox play is a lot more varied than it is being given credit for here (at the very least it is quite different from early 90s era TSR modules)
 

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