Why do RPGs have rules?

Well, yeah. Rule 0 only applies in games that like D&D, give the DM that authority. Just like the people who agree to play and/or D&D agree via the social contract to Rule 0(absent any overt discussion and change), people who agree to play and/or run a game that doesn't have Rule 0 have agreed via the social contract that it doesn't exist(absent any overt discussion and change).

I don’t agree. My group doesn’t care about rule zero at all. We don’t agree to it.

And I have. Multiple times. In this thread even!

There are passages in the books that you’ve cited as indicative of rule zero. But they aren’t cited as rule zero, and others clearly have different ideas of what rule zero is.

5e doesn’t ever come out and say “rule zero is defined as…”. It never happens. It is impossible to cite.
 

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There are two ways Suits' play can be sustained in an RPG incorporating a rule zero.

One way is that GM has the function of referee and uses rule zero properly in that capacity. For example, from 4e


Another way is that there are additional principles and rules that GM voluntarily accepts that limit their use of rule zero. For example, from Mentzer Basic

Everyone must agree to the change. Rules you add apply to everyone, and must be fair, which means not favouring monsters or characters.
My point is that if Suit's is saying that the DM is telling a story to the players, he's wrong. The only way to accomplish that is really to be railroading the players to such a degree that nothing they say matters. That's not how you play a traditional game. If you play the game as the rules are written, no story is being told TO the players. It is a collaboration to some degree. Some traditional games greater than others.
 

I don’t agree. My group doesn’t care about rule zero at all. We don’t agree to it.
Then you've all agreed not to use it, which I covered.
There are passages in the books that you’ve cited as indicative of rule zero. But they aren’t cited as rule zero, and others clearly have different ideas of what rule zero is.
They don't have to call it "Rule 0." That's like saying that my saying "here's a hershey bar" only indicates that it has chocolate in it, it doesn't actually say it's chocolate, so it doesn't really count. It's also like saying that just because I talk about milk chocolate, you talk about dark chocolate and someone else talks about tempered chocolate, that we all have different ideas about what chocolate is, so using the term chocolate isn't useful.
5e doesn’t ever come out and say “rule zero is defined as…”. It never happens. It is impossible to cite.
I don't have to cite "Rule 0" the term. 5e says very clearly no less than a dozen times that the DM can do what he wants with the game, it's his. That's Rule 0 whether it uses the term or not, and I can cite those dozen times all day long.
 

This just tells me you're using a definition of "completeness" that isn't particularly productive.
I point out how it is productive. I can hardly help it that TTRPGs are necessarily incomplete.

If, in defining a term, you find out that it either doesn't apply to anything, or anything it does apply to would be severely damaged as a result of meeting that standard...maybe it's better to look for something else?
As I wrote, all TTRPG's are incomplete and that is to their advantage. It's a distinctive quality of RPGs as games that they are incomplete. It's only if I want to use incompleteness as a negative quality does it suddenly become crucial to shade some rule sets complete and others incomplete. However, it is a positive quality.

I can focus on procedures for updating the rules to meet requirements that are satisfactory to me on some grounds, or on the limits upon play that I might accept to avoid running into incompleteness (although at some point if I insist on completeness I end up with something more like a boardgame.) I could revert to a casual definition of completeness - having all the necessary or appropriate parts - but what then are the "necessary" or "appropriate" parts for a TTRPG? That's very subjective.
 

I haven't played Dungeon World, but if you're using "sufficient" the way I think you are, meaning "no creativity or rule interpolation/creation" is required, I find that claim hard to believe. I hear dungeon worlders talking about making up "custom moves," with defined prerequisites and effects, and that sounds like rule creation to me.
Nobody makes up custom moves in order to 'patch a hole' in action resolution, no such holes can arise by the nature of the construction of the Dungeon World rules. Custom moves are a POSSIBILITY which could be exercised by the table, as a way of portraying some different sort of character archetype, or some kind of ability that simply isn't already covered that the participants want to emphasize. Again, its not patching a hole in the action resolution system. It would be more like adding a new class ability in D&D, and done for largely the same kind of reason.

The other thing that GMs sometimes do (well, often I guess overall) is construct custom moves for THEMSELVES, or as 'SPECIAL MOVES', which are a category that are 'passively activated' by PCs. I think the "Outstanding Warrants" move was discussed in the Bloodbath thread. This is a move which a player triggers when they enter a town where they might be wanted. GMs could make up new moves of this sort. I think @Manbearcat in some thread mentioned creating a custom move for a PC in an AW game where the move was triggered at some interval and the associated roll of dice helped determine what was up with the character's holdings. The GM could instead have just made a GM move to say "You made some money this month" or "Raiders are active in the South Fields" or whatever. I guess you could characterize these as 'subsystems' and 'new rules', but they don't rise to any higher level of such than, say, using the 2e DMG "make a custom encounter table" rule to customize encounters in a specific area in a game. Hardly anyone would call that a house rule, the DMG says to do it, and how to do it, its just backstory.
It's unavoidable. Players will always want to occasionally try sometime the rules don't explicitly allow, and you'll have to make up a reasonable result or system for producing results. Have I misunderstood you or do you genuinely think that Dungeon World has rules and outcomes defined already for every conceivable player action from plunging a toilet to digging mile-long tunnel? I suspect you're going to come back with something that says the GM or the player will make something appropriate up, in which case I'm going to say "that's just GM fiat, a.k.a. Rule Zero, extended to be shared with the players." That wouldn't count as an absence of fiat.
Nope, I suggest playing Dungeon World, there's no such need in that game. When a player declares that his PC is taking an action, that action HAPPENS. Either the table rules that the action cannot succeed (and generally this determination often is made before the declaration is formally made since it is advantageous to insure that all players have the same fictional position in mind) and it fails automatically, or it is possible and either a move is triggered and a roll made, or the action succeeds automatically. This covers ALL POSSIBLE ACTIONS in Dungeon World (and other similar PbtAs generally speaking).

So, if your character is 'plunging a toilet', I'd first of all consider this too trivial to need to adjudicate or even frame into a scene, but lets assume somehow it is a critical action. So, can the character succeed? I'd say its quite possible! Does this trigger any existing move? I'm not aware of one in Dungeon World, though 'Defy Danger' is fuzzy enough that basically you could trigger it for most things, so the table will have to decide here, is this so hazardous that DD is needed? If not, then it just succeeds! I mean, frankly unless there's a bomb in the crappy that might be set off or somesuch, I favor the poop goes down the hole, lets move on! But lets assume there IS a bomb in their, then DD is your go-to move, with maybe INT to disarm, DEX to shove it down the pipe before it can explode, etc.

Same with the mile-long tunnel. I mean, this sounds like a more involved kind of a situation, but it might be handled as a single action depending on where the GM and players want to focus their attention (IE its part of a large siege where lots of different actions are happening). Again, its probably just a matter of context as to what happens. If the lead PC on that job is a dwarf with a mining backstory, he probably just succeeds! If not, or if there's obvious dangers involved, then DD is again your friend, maybe with +WIS in this case.

Thus we can see, this is a very 'complete' game, there is an established mechanical approach to resolving ALL 'plot issues'. And that's really the key to this sort of game, that its not about simulating the results of taking certain actions. Its about determining what the development of that part of the narrative will bring. Does the dwarf undermine the castle wall? Play to find out! Would 'real' dwarves in a 'real situation' succeed? I dunno, it is a fantasy world, the question isn't meaningful. I know that there are at least a couple of story possibilities and the interesting ones are going to be picked between, some dice thrown and one chosen. It works every time for all plots, because plots are all the same at heart, they all involve fictional elements and things that need to be decided, which is what the rules do.

As for some sort of 'fiat', you clearly need to play one of these games, badly, under a reasonably skilled GM with experience in running it. There's no 'fiat' involved. You are reasoning from an idea of an all-powerful game master who is charged with inventing all of the fiction and authority to make it whatever they feel like. This situation doesn't exist in a Dungeon World game. Even when the game calls on the GM to make something up (and it does this OFTEN) the things that are made up have to meet fairly specific criteria. That does still leave infinite possibilities, but because many of those criteria involve feedback from players, directly or indirectly, and sometimes players even get to say fiction beyond their PC, it takes on a very different character than what happens in a D&D game. You can repeat endlessly that it is just the same old GM fiat, but you will endlessly be wrong!
 


Point taken. 🙂
But they are examples of things another person might think I would love.

I've seen you produce quotes from 3e and 5e that seem to me to offer a much milder proposition than what you've advocated. I don't think I've seen you show anything from 1e, please correct me if I am wrong.
1e/2e Rule 0 is pretty much accepted in stone. 2e got it from 1e and 1e is where the term comes from. I'm not 100% that 4e actually had it, though, since I really didn't play that edition.
 

Nobody makes up custom moves in order to 'patch a hole' in action resolution, no such holes can arise by the nature of the construction of the Dungeon World rules. Custom moves are a POSSIBILITY which could be exercised by the table, as a way of portraying some different sort of character archetype, or some kind of ability that simply isn't already covered that the participants want to emphasize. Again, its not patching a hole in the action resolution system. It would be more like adding a new class ability in D&D, and done for largely the same kind of reason.

The other thing that GMs sometimes do (well, often I guess overall) is construct custom moves for THEMSELVES, or as 'SPECIAL MOVES', which are a category that are 'passively activated' by PCs. I think the "Outstanding Warrants" move was discussed in the Bloodbath thread. This is a move which a player triggers when they enter a town where they might be wanted. GMs could make up new moves of this sort. I think @Manbearcat in some thread mentioned creating a custom move for a PC in an AW game where the move was triggered at some interval and the associated roll of dice helped determine what was up with the character's holdings. The GM could instead have just made a GM move to say "You made some money this month" or "Raiders are active in the South Fields" or whatever. I guess you could characterize these as 'subsystems' and 'new rules', but they don't rise to any higher level of such than, say, using the 2e DMG "make a custom encounter table" rule to customize encounters in a specific area in a game. Hardly anyone would call that a house rule, the DMG says to do it, and how to do it, its just backstory.

Nope, I suggest playing Dungeon World, there's no such need in that game. When a player declares that his PC is taking an action, that action HAPPENS. Either the table rules that the action cannot succeed (and generally this determination often is made before the declaration is formally made since it is advantageous to insure that all players have the same fictional position in mind) and it fails automatically, or it is possible and either a move is triggered and a roll made, or the action succeeds automatically. This covers ALL POSSIBLE ACTIONS in Dungeon World (and other similar PbtAs generally speaking).

So, if your character is 'plunging a toilet', I'd first of all consider this too trivial to need to adjudicate or even frame into a scene, but lets assume somehow it is a critical action. So, can the character succeed? I'd say its quite possible! Does this trigger any existing move? I'm not aware of one in Dungeon World, though 'Defy Danger' is fuzzy enough that basically you could trigger it for most things, so the table will have to decide here, is this so hazardous that DD is needed? If not, then it just succeeds! I mean, frankly unless there's a bomb in the crappy that might be set off or somesuch, I favor the poop goes down the hole, lets move on! But lets assume there IS a bomb in their, then DD is your go-to move, with maybe INT to disarm, DEX to shove it down the pipe before it can explode, etc.

Same with the mile-long tunnel. I mean, this sounds like a more involved kind of a situation, but it might be handled as a single action depending on where the GM and players want to focus their attention (IE its part of a large siege where lots of different actions are happening). Again, its probably just a matter of context as to what happens. If the lead PC on that job is a dwarf with a mining backstory, he probably just succeeds! If not, or if there's obvious dangers involved, then DD is again your friend, maybe with +WIS in this case.

Thus we can see, this is a very 'complete' game, there is an established mechanical approach to resolving ALL 'plot issues'. And that's really the key to this sort of game, that its not about simulating the results of taking certain actions. Its about determining what the development of that part of the narrative will bring. Does the dwarf undermine the castle wall? Play to find out! Would 'real' dwarves in a 'real situation' succeed? I dunno, it is a fantasy world, the question isn't meaningful. I know that there are at least a couple of story possibilities and the interesting ones are going to be picked between, some dice thrown and one chosen. It works every time for all plots, because plots are all the same at heart, they all involve fictional elements and things that need to be decided, which is what the rules do.

As for some sort of 'fiat', you clearly need to play one of these games, badly, under a reasonably skilled GM with experience in running it. There's no 'fiat' involved. You are reasoning from an idea of an all-powerful game master who is charged with inventing all of the fiction and authority to make it whatever they feel like. This situation doesn't exist in a Dungeon World game. Even when the game calls on the GM to make something up (and it does this OFTEN) the things that are made up have to meet fairly specific criteria. That does still leave infinite possibilities, but because many of those criteria involve feedback from players, directly or indirectly, and sometimes players even get to say fiction beyond their PC, it takes on a very different character than what happens in a D&D game. You can repeat endlessly that it is just the same old GM fiat, but you will endlessly be wrong!
You outline a number of rulings that you find satisfactory. Seeing as I, following the same rules, can produce different rulings (ones that I find satisfactory), we are each relying on something not in the rules to produce our ruling.

Here is a concrete question: in the Ritual move, how much is a lot of money?


EDIT As a side note, I agree that DW rulings are not the same as the GM discretion used in some other modes of play. There's more work upfront to constrain them. As I alluded to, that could amount to MC participating in prelusory goals and adopting some form of lusory attitude.
 
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Suits does not say that.
@pemerton seems to imply that he does with this post.

"There is a "prelusory goal" for which the lusory means of the GM is permitted to author the shared fiction is, in fact, the most efficient means: namely, the goal of having the GM tell the other players a story.

It therefore seems plausible that, on Suits's account of what a game is, a RPG with rule zero isn't a game at all. Because in a RPG with rule zero, it seems that there is no "voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles" (the quote is from Suits, as per Lusory attitude - Wikipedia)."

He's associating Suit's quote with "lusory" and the first paragraph when lusory = the goal is to have the DM tell the players a story.
 

@pemerton seems to imply that he does with this post.

"There is a "prelusory goal" for which the lusory means of the GM is permitted to author the shared fiction is, in fact, the most efficient means: namely, the goal of having the GM tell the other players a story.
Suits never wrote about GMs. The poster is presenting a conjecture in response to a conjecture of my own.

It therefore seems plausible that, on Suits's account of what a game is, a RPG with rule zero isn't a game at all. Because in a RPG with rule zero, it seems that there is no "voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles" (the quote is from Suits, as per Lusory attitude - Wikipedia)."

He's associating Suit's quote with "lusory" and the first paragraph when lusory = the goal is to have the DM tell the players a story.
I have just listed two ways that, on Suits' account of what a game is, it is plausible that an RPG with Rule Zero remains a game.

That said, I agree with the poster to the extent that there is an implication that a rule zero could be destructive to an RPG as a game; that is where GM is not acting in the capacity of referee and there are no further constraints - lusory limits of whatever sort toward which they adopt a lusory attitude - governing their use of rule zero.
 

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