Why do RPGs have rules?

Okay, I read the rules for Dungeon World, and I love them. They are very similar to Monster Hearts, though much more extensive, though that makes sense as both have origins in PBtA, yeah? In reference to D&D, because that is the common touchstone, I would characterize them as having relatively high completeness and relatively low complexity. In particular, the move system is a really great way of building narrative in terms of shared storytelling and RPing. It is kind of lousy in terms of tactical miniatures-based play, which is a thing I love to do, but you can't have everything (I would describe D&D as okay at the latter, but not good at the former).

I really want to play in a DW campaign, though I doubt I'll get the chance any time soon, unless I run it (but I'd rather play it before I try to run it).

One thing that it keeps from D&D is GM control of the environment - the GM remains the more or less omniscient God of the game world. So it is not shared storytelling in the mode of, say, Fiasco, but more or less a traditional RPG in that sense. The big difference seems to be that the GM is no longer a referee to anything like the extent of a D&D game.

One thing that I think the rules (intentionally) lack is a lot of the crunch of a game like D&D, Pathfinder, etc. This is interesting to me because I think that increased complexity creates opportunities for logical problem solving that DW avoids in favour of narrative problem solving.

My initial takeaway is that, if we go back to the original genesis of RPGs in a kind of half-baked fusion of miniature wargaming and fantastical storytelling, DW's rules lean heavily into the latter at the expense of the former.

Edit: Honestly, the guidelines for how to GM are fantastic and should be studied by everyone who wants to run any RPG. Also, the prose is really clear, and I am a fan of good, direct writing. The GM section is about a million times more practically useful than the DMG; WotC should be taking notes.
 
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Okay, I read the rules for Dungeon World, and I love them. They are very similar to Monster Hearts, though much more extensive, though that makes sense as both have origins in PBtA, yeah? In reference to D&D, because that is the common touchstone, I would characterize them as having relatively high completeness and relatively low complexity. In particular, the move system is a really great way of building narrative in terms of shared storytelling and RPing. It is kind of lousy in terms of tactical miniatures-based play, which is a thing I love to do, but you can't have everything (I would describe D&D as okay at the latter, but not good at the former).

I really want to play in a DW campaign, though I doubt I'll get the chance any time soon, unless I run it (but I'd rather play it before I try to run it).

One thing that it keeps from D&D is GM control of the environment - the GM remains the more or less omniscient God of the game world. So it is not shared storytelling in the mode of, say, Fiasco, but more or less a traditional RPG in that sense. The big difference seems to be that the GM is no longer a referee to anything like the extent of a D&D game.

One thing that I think the rules (internally) lack is a lot of the crunch of a game like D&D, Pathfinder, etc. This is interesting to me because I think that increased complexity creates opportunities for logical problem solving that DW avoids in favour of narrative problem solving.

My initial takeaway is that, if we go back to the original genesis of RPGs in a kind of half-baked fusion of miniature wargaming and fantastical storytelling, DW's rules lean heavily into the latter at the expense of the former.

Edit: Honestly, the guidelines for how to GM are fantastic and should be studied by everyone who wants to run any RPG. Also, the prose is really clear, and I am a fan of good, direct writing. The GM section is about a million times more practically useful than the DMG; WotC should be taking notes.

Now go read Ironsworn for comparison. There's additional mechanical weight compared to DW (though not much), and I think its explanation of how a "narrative first" / PbtA style game actually works may be some of the strongest I've ever read.

I recently read DW again, thinking I might run again, but then I went back and read Ironsworn, and just realized that Ironsworn does everything better for my needs. Then I found the Vaults & Vows hack / asset collection that basically turns Ironsworn in a "classic" D&D direction . . . and I didn't look back.

They're definitely from the same strand of PbtA DNA though (which makes sense, since Shawn Tomkin clearly calls out DW as a key influence).
 

Now go read Ironsworn for comparison. There's additional mechanical weight compared to DW (though not much), and I think its explanation of how a "narrative first" / PbtA style game actually works may be some of the strongest I've ever read.

I recently read DW again, thinking I might run again, but then I went back and read Ironsworn, and just realized that Ironsworn does everything better for my needs. Then I found the Vaults & Vows hack / asset collection that basically turns Ironsworn in a "classic" D&D direction . . . and I didn't look back.

They're definitely from the same strand of PbtA DNA though (which makes sense, since Shawn Tomkin clearly calls out DW as a key influence).
Now go read Stonetop for comparison. 😜
 


It's a bit meaningless if the game doesn't specify a DC or how to derive one. You can easily slide any given situation entirely off the table.
Which for stealth is in fact defined: best passive perception of the would-be lookouts.

While I see the points being forwarded (both yours and Clearstream's), that's one exemplar case that, RAW, is covered by the rules.
Likewise, the 5E DMG sets social roll difficulty by reaction.
Many skill uses in 5E have specified DCs.
As soon as its finished and available on full PDF, it's definitely on the purchase short list. I thought about paying for the pre-order PDFs, but I don't want to have to chase the author on discord to actually get my hands on a copy.

Send me a link when it's on DTRPG, and I'm there. :)
Not certain which you're referring to...
Ironsworn: Ironsworn - Shawn Tomkin | DriveThruRPG.com

Vaults and Vows: Vaults & Vows Assets (found from the link on Mythweavers)

I don't have Ironsworn Delve, but it's also on DTRPG
 

Which for stealth is in fact defined: best passive perception of the would-be lookouts.

While I see the points being forwarded (both yours and Clearstream's), that's one exemplar case that, RAW, is covered by the rules.
Likewise, the 5E DMG sets social roll difficulty by reaction.
Many skill uses in 5E have specified DCs.
I'm really talking about a broader design attitude. Like, the phrase "the DM will set the DC" is something I'd prefer not to see in a book I'm consuming. Much like the rule zero discussion, if a DC cannot be determined despite a fairly exhaustive list, then it should be clear that the GM ought to reason an analogous task from the existing set and use it but that should be an exceptional state of affairs the design seeks to avoid, instead of a normative process of play.

Plus, stealth is generally quite poorly defined, mostly WRT the frequency of checks, the situations in which you can hide and what being hidden allows you to do. You can absolutely imagine a warehouse with stacks of crates and scattered guards, despite identical navigation by a PC and a specified map resulting in two different GMs calling for differing numbers (and possibly difficulties) of checks, or not even requiring or allowing skill checks at various points.

My point about incompleteness not being good or interesting sits nicely here. I'd prefer TTRPGs strive to provide a sufficiently complete set of interaction rules that players can confidently call for them and understand/expect their consistent application.
 

Plus, stealth is generally quite poorly defined, mostly WRT the frequency of checks, the situations in which you can hide and what being hidden allows you to do. You can absolutely imagine a warehouse with stacks of crates and scattered guards, despite identical navigation by a PC and a specified map resulting in two different GMs calling for differing numbers (and possibly difficulties) of checks, or not even requiring or allowing skill checks at various points.

My point about incompleteness not being good or interesting sits nicely here. I'd prefer TTRPGs strive to provide a sufficiently complete set of interaction rules that players can confidently call for them and understand/expect their consistent application.
I agree, although I want more than that: not only do I want the game to be consistent, I want it to feel plausible, especially w/rt probability curves and modifiers. It's easy to give a game complete-but-implausible Stealth rules: "when you try to do something stealthily, roll a DC 15 Stealth check, and on a success nobody notices you."

That's a complete rule (the outcome is always clear, at least in the context of 5E where 'DC 15 Stealth check' has a meaning). But it's also garbage. Waiting until the dead of night doesn't make stealth any easier than doing it in broad daylight. Camouflage and ninja slippers don't help. Arranging a diversion doesn't help. Smelling like raw sewage doesn't hurt. Trying to sneak at top speed while on fire doesn't hurt. The rule is very clear about whether I achieve my goal, but it's ignoring my means and approach, which means it's ignoring all the things that matter to me in the name of a mechanically simple resolution procedure.

TTRPGs that I consider well-designed do a lot of the homework up front for you, specifying probability curves for common situations, while also making it easy to model other situations plausibly. E.g. fighting on bad footing should be more difficult than fighting on level ground, but good equipment should help (or even make it a net advantage, if you have good equipment and your foe does not), and fighting while sitting down should be even worse, even if "fighting while sitting" is not in the rulebook.

$0.02.
 
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It wouldn't seem right to say that a referee decides play in a game of football. The players observably enjoy genuine decision-making and in collaboration have decisive impact on the game.
A referee in football doesn't play the game. They don't set the field. They don't establish the success conditions. They enforce the rules. (Sometimes this requires judgement calls. Just like LBW or dangerous bowling in cricket. Judging whether an observed phenomenon violates some standard is not a mechanical process, but it is not the same as making something up.)

In Australian Rules football, the umpire frequently has to bounce or throw the ball (eg if the ball leaves play; if a goal is scored). But this is not a move for either side. It is a neutral device for (re)commencing play.

When Vincent Baker makes his comment about task resolution - "Task resolution, in short, puts the GM in a position of priviledged authorship. Task resolution will undermine your collaboration." - he is not making a remark about football referees. Nor is he making a remark about free kriegspiel or Braunstein judges. He is making a remark about the consequences that follow from a certain player of a RPG enjoying certain sorts of permissions in respect of the shared fiction.

The judge in free kriegspiel or in a Braunstein does not enjoy permissions of that sort. Moldvay Basic has relatively strong instructions for the GM process that constrain such permissions.

Gygax's AD&D is incoherent in this respect. His PHB gives advice to players which can only work if the GM lacks the sorts of permissions that Baker is criticising - that is, the advice can only work if the GM is bound by their prep, is not at liberty to change the dungeon in significant ways in response to player-driven incursions, and is adjudicating the situation essentially as a free kriegspiel judge would. His DMG then gives advice on how to change the dungeon in significant ways in response to player-driven incursions, which - if followed - will (i) make the PHB advice to players more-or-less useless, and (ii) create exactly the problem that Baker is diagnosing.

Of course the reason for this incoherence in the two rulebooks is not that Gygax is some sort of idiot. It's that they were written at different times, and expectations about the goals and content of RPGing were changing rapidly over that time.

I feel this is a reasonable line to take if one hopes to argue that one participant's power to change rules must disrupt (what I've called) the lusory fabric. I need to bring judge into the game as a player so as to dispose of their otherwise clearly not disruptive conduct as referee. That step can be resisted through saying any or all of
  • a person is capable of operating in a plurality of modes in play, so that they can operate as both referee and player
  • it is possible for a person to be expert or conferred with expertise in their version of an imagined world
  • there's no need to be the most expert to be an effective referee: other qualities are more important
  • possessing an agenda for refereeing is not necessarily identical to possessing an agenda for playing: the referee does not share in the prelusory goals of the players... they're more akin to a game affordance for those goals (elsewhere I described the FKR GM as a "font of unnecessary obstacles")
Generally, it seems straightforward and plausible to say that GM can indeed act as referee.
I don't know what any of this is saying. What I mean by that is that I can read the words, but I don't what actual phenomena they are intended to refer to.

Consider a free kriegspiel. The modelled battlefield contains a river. So part of the challenge for the players is coming up with sensible ways of getting their forces across the river without excessive loss.

Now imagine two different ways that might unfold:

(1) The players are told that it is spring, and are told (or its taken for granted) that the battle is taking place in Europe. It is thus reasonable to expect them to have regard to spring melt, and the effect of that on river depths and flow, in their play. Perhaps this is actually part of what the exercise is testing! When the judge reveals an unwelcome truth about the depth, speed of flow, etc of the river, the players are expected to suck that up and cope.

(2) A player is in the process of describing how their forces cross the river, and the judge suddenly tells them that a flashflood occurs, and half their forces are swept away! This may or may not be a reasonable thing for a free kriegspiel judge to do: it will undoubtedly test the ability of that player to make decisions about how to proceed in the face of unexpected disaster and loss of forces. But it clearly doesn't test the ability of the player to make decisions about crossing a river. No matter how vividly the judge is imagining the sudden and torrential upstream rain, the player cannot have been expected to have regard to the risk of a flash flood if nothing about the set up of the situation signalled it as a possibility.​

Suppose, now, that instead of thinking about a free kriegspiel training exercise, we think about a competitive game (say a wargame or a Braunstein). My (1) would be a fair way to set up the scenario. My (2), on the other hand, would be an example of the "judge" deciding, more-or-less arbitrarily, to hose one of the competitors.

In (2), the "judge" has become a player, making a change to the shared fiction that dramatically affects another players' fictional position, that has no grounding in the evolution of the game state - that it to say, it is not a reasoned extrapolation from the fiction as affected by another player's move. It is a move in its own right.

Gygax in his PHB gives players advice on the best way to tackle scenarios of type (1). Gygax in his DMG gives GMs advice to do type (2) stuff. Once the GM is doing type (2) stuff, the whole dynamic of play has fundamentally changed. Abstract postulating that a given participant can be both a player and a referee won't change that conclusion.

The way I would reframe what you say here is that there are multiple RPG modes, and in some of those modes GM is intended to be a player. In those modes, it's intuitive to picture that anyone with rule-forming-and-modifying authority must adopt a lusory attitude that forestalls their waving aside all unnecessary obstacles. There are then a subset of rules, the "why" of which is just that. Those rules are not necessary in a refereed game.
I don't understand any of this.

It is impossible, in Suits' framework, to adopt a lusory attitude and at the same time to enjoy rule-forming-and-modifying authority, as to adopt a lusory attitude is to grant normative credence, for the sake of play, to some rules that are constitutive of the play that is being undertaken. So unless you are using "lusory attitude" with some other meaning, I can only take the injunction "anyone with rule-forming-and-modifying authority must adopt a lusory attitude" to be self-contradictory and thus impossible to conform to.
 

Suppose a player describes their character in the fictional city of Sigilstar looking for a tea shop. Is that the telling of a fiction in the sense you mean? I'm thinking in particular of player in the 5e sense as having strong authority over what their character does, says and thinks. Is their character and its meandering fiction?
Isn't more context needed?

There's also some syntactic ambiguity in your question - is the bolded phrase a property of the character, or of the description?

Suppose that the shared fiction has established that a given character (X) is in the (imaginary) city of Greyhawk. Suppose that a player in the game (A) is the "owner" of X. (In 5e D&D terminology, we would say that X is A's PC.)

Suppose A now describes X as being in the fictional city of Sigilstar. That is in a literal sense a telling of a fiction - it's the utterance of a proposition that is, in some literal sense, false (there is no such being as X and no such place as Sigilstar) but that is not intended to be literally true but rather is intended to be "true" within an imagined state of affairs. (I don't think we need to get deep into the semantics and metaphysics of fictions here.)

But it would be unusual, in typical RPG play, for A's description to be a contribution to the shared fiction, because - unless it is somehow established that X is able to move from city to city at will - it is already established as true in the shared fiction that X is in Greyhawk and hence false in the shared fiction that X is in Sigilstar.

Turning to "looking for a tea shop": if it is already established in the shared fiction that there is no tea (in Sigilstar, in this part of the world, in the whole cosmos - I don't think it matters), then again while A is telling a fiction A is not making a contribution to the shared fiction.

But now let's suppose that (i) it is already established, as part of the shared fiction, that X is in the city of Sigilstar, and (ii) the shared fiction concerning Sigilstar and environs are such as to not rule out the possibility of tea shops. So now, when A describes X as looking for a tea shop in Sigilstar, we do have a candidate contribution to the shared fiction.

How is that candidate contribution to be assessed and either validated or rejected?

One way is via (say) a Wises check (this would be the BW approach, if the GM doens't just say "yes"), or via a PP expenditure to generate a Resource (this is the default approach in MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic), or via Streetwise check (this is the default approach in Classic Traveller).

Another way is for a different participant in the game to ask questions to further establish context ("What tea shops to you know in Sigilstar?","What are you hoping to get from the tea shop?", etc) and on the basis of the answers to those questions to introduce fictional elements into the telling of the search for and/or discovery of the tea shop, elements of foreboding and risk that establish what is at stake but don't foreclose A's aspirations (as elicited via the questions). In this way, the search for and/or discovery of the teashop becomes a manifestation of "rising action"; and the shared fiction, in its totality and having regard to its temporal nature, comes to resemble a story. (This is the "soft move" technique of AW and similar games; what makes these games work is that (i) the rising action tends to push the shared fiction in a certain direction, and (ii) in addition to the soft move technique there are other rules - rules around hard moves - that are enlivened when the shared fiction arrives at one or more states, as set out in those rules for hard moves.)

Yet another way is for there to be a game participant who is given special authority to decide what sorts of shops are found in, and what sorts of beverages are purveyed in, Sigilstar. That participant then tells all the participants, including A, what X does or doesn't find (perhaps also calling for a "check" from A, or making a roll on an "encounter" or "location" matrix, to help guide them in deciding what to say). This is the default approach in AD&D, and 3E and 5e D&D. It is also the default approach in Rolemaster, in RuneQuest, I believe in GURPS, and in many other RPGs.

Whether someone wants to describe the third way in the language of expertise - the participant with the special authority is an expert on the imaginary city of Sigilstar, and its shops and beverages - strikes me as neither here nor there, as far as understanding what sort of RPGing experience it will generate. As Vincent Baker says, it puts one participant in a privileged position of authorship. And as I have said, it does not seem to be gameplay in Suits's sense, because there is no adoption of less efficient means in pursuit of the pre-lusory goal of establishing a shared fiction.
 
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The One Ring both explicity characterises LM as "referee", and provides them with this advice for how to manage the world-expertise aspect of LMing.

<snip discussion of how to use JRRT lore in a RPG>

Anyway, all I am making is the mild claim that GM can operate as referee, and that their expertise in canon (or whatever fields of knowledge are felt relevant) is not an obstacle to that.
This does not address the issue that I (or Vincent Baker, in his reference to privileged authorship) have raised.

Everything you quoted from The One Ring could be taken on board in a LotR-inspired BW or DW or Cortex+ Heroic game. I've used Cortex+ Heroic Fantasy to do LotR/MERP, and had no trouble using the sorts of techniques that you have quoted. But this did not involve a privileged position of authorship (in Baker's terminology, Cortex+ Heroic uses conflict resolution, not task resolution).

The question that I was addressing, and that Baker is addressing, is how to decide whether a participant's proposed change to the shared fiction is accepted. The quote from The One Ring says nothing about that.
 

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