Why do RPGs have rules?

My view is that, unless the person posing the hypothetical has fairly good knowledge of multiple cultures, and their orientations towards death, the two approaches you describe are not very different.

Again, I think your bar is way way higher than anyone I have encounter who enjoys this style of play. Needless to say, I don't require that level of expertise, and do think it still produces substantively different results. I am not looking for the person to have answers that would be true were we able to run an experiment and create immortal elves to observe what kind of culture they create. I am looking for answers that seem well reasoned and thought out, that lead somewhere the GM might not have otherwise gone had they not considered this. It like doing counterfactual history (i.e. what would have happened in John Wilkes Booth missed and Lincoln lived). Some people can answer that more expertly than others. And while I would certainly be interested in a world created by someone in that way who has multiple PhDs, I am perfectly content with people who just have a hobbyist interest and are willing to put the effort into the thought experiment.
 

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How am I not acknowledging that? I'm continually asserting it, and encouraging other posters to engage in descriptions of process - how is the shared fiction created? what role do various participants play? - rather than to talk about content as if that is illustrative or indicative of process.
By continually refusing to try to understand what simulationism is about when I and others try to explain it. If you can't comprehend what it is I do after the detailed posts I wrote and examples that I supplied. Then our discussion is at an end as I can't help you further.
 

I am pretty transparent with my players and I don't believe in being precious about maintaining the illusion that there isn't a GM making choices and that I am using various procedures and approaches to track and manage NPCs. I remember there was a quote from Tarantino, which I am sure expresses a sentiment others have expressed that basically says the audience is not stupid and never forgets that they are watching a movie. They know it isn't real. So I often do things like explain to players why something happened if they seem confused about it, or pull back the curtain and show them the procedures and logic I was using to figure out how a given NPC would or would not be able to ambush them at that moment.

As an example I sometimes, not always, use a map and tokens to track the movement of NPCs, sects, etc. This creates a more 'objective' interaction in my opinion between the players and their enemies (and is fair too). I often show them this so they understand the way decisions in the game are being made.
Yeah, one of the first steps I went down in terms of narrativist play was to simply stop treating the players as if they didn't have equal creative input, and thus we all became equal in information. I mean, it started in my '90s campaign, which I'd already designed and used the existing campaign world I had, so the players in that game didn't start with TOTAL information, but after we started playing I told them what I had come up with and they 'did stuff' with it. They didn't actually change anything though, interestingly. They just built a totally different story out of what was there. Later when 'stuff happened' I just narrated stuff that was more relevant to their version of the story than the original one. Again, it isn't hugely different, and there's no difference in consistency.

What I got was things like the Druid's story of a power struggle between some druids who hated civilization, and other ones that had a more nuanced view over whether they would help one side or the other side in a war. That is, with the players inventing the two sides and most of the major characters involved, or at least taking the story in a certain direction.
 

I know a guy who has a PhD in rheology, has helped design and implement large-scale engineering solutions for extracting the last dregs of oil from deep wells, and is also an impressive amateur marathon runner and a member of his local snow rescue group.

I present this example because it's an especially clear one.
So your guy is multiclassed. It happens. :)

Still not going to be much use if what I really need right now is a locksmith.
 

One thing I would add about this though is Conan is very episodic which lends itself well to the rootless wanderer (though in some stories he clearly has roots and responsibilities). But D&D is week to week, and each session builds on the previous one, so while I think it is true most characters in a standard D&D campaign start out as rootless wanderers, over time they tend to establish roots. And lots of people tire of the rootless wanderer trope and try to establish more connections at character creation.
Yet I've almost not seen this. The only thing I've seen do this, in general, is either players who heavily focus on it and have good GM support for it, or the name-level stronghold stuff, which can sort of do it (but often doesn't). In terms of classic and really trad D&D play, not really. All the high level characters I can think of in the campaigns of the three D&D DMs I played with through the '80s and '90s, I never really saw this happen. The two main high level PCs I played, neither one had any family, no defined place of origin, no backstory ever developed, and neither of them even particularly had much of a base of operations. My wizard theoretically had a wizard's tower, but I don't think anything of consequence ever happened there. My ranger had some followers, and I guess they all theoretically wandered the forests when they weren't slaying demons and such. They had allies, other PCs mainly, but not really any normal human relationships. That was the normal and usual D&D character from 1975 to the very end of TSR D&D!

Not to say that what you are relating doesn't happen, etc. Its just really fantastically rare, even in campaigns that feature a lot of creative material and really captured player's interest in terms of the action and whatnot. At best it was just assumed PCs went somewhere and hung out, maybe they had girlfriends or something? Frankly, why create that sort of stuff when playing D&D, its all about XP and loot, personal entanglements are just a bad idea.
Also wanderers don't have to be rootless. Wuxia is filled with characters who wander around fighting protecting the weak and contending with corrupt officials and people who use power to exploit. But they are often characters with very strong roots in a martial organization (i.e. Wudang, Shaolin, Plum Blossom Island, etc), roots under master or group of masters, and powerful family connections (the character in return of Condor heroes is the son of the villain of the first book and is adopted by his father's sworn brother, the first books hero, then placed into the care of a Daoist sect). That can absolutely work in a D&D context. I suppose one could call it a contrivance, but it also a lot more like the kinds of real connections people have in life.
But again, the ONLY time I really saw this was A) in my OA game (which never really caught fire, though we did play a decent number of sessions), and B) in my last campaign, which was far closer to narrativist, or maybe kind of neo-trad, its hard to say, but was definitely 'post trad'. Again, there's just nothing in the trad lexicon of D&D that really supports or encourages this sort of thing. Its a game which is designed from the ground up to be focused on rooms, corridors, battle fields, and monsters above all other things. Again, OA is a bit of an outlier here as the PLAYERS get to define (or at least roll up) stuff like their clan, their martial arts schools, etc.

I wouldn't say 3.x did much to change this, though it did add a bunch of character options, which created some mechanical potential. 4e really started to exploit it more, with the various builds and options PP, ED, etc. that directly referenced things like schools and whatnot. 5e is more mixed, there's not really much incentive or mechanisms to do stuff like this, but the options are there, background COULD be leveraged (though it seems sadly neglected) and there are some 4e-esque references to schools and whatnot that could be leveraged.
 

It like doing counterfactual history (i.e. what would have happened in John Wilkes Booth missed and Lincoln lived). Some people can answer that more expertly than others.
Yes. Counterfactual history of (say) classical Rome, done by me, is not really counterfactual history at all. It's pure invention!

And while I would certainly be interested in a world created by someone in that way who has multiple PhDs, I am perfectly content with people who just have a hobbyist interest and are willing to put the effort into the thought experiment.
My assertion is that all they are achieving is imagination and invention. Not knowledge or "realism".

The imagination and invention may be engaging - that's not in dispute.
 



Yes. Counterfactual history of (say) classical Rome, done by me, is not really counterfactual history at all. It's pure invention!

I wouldn't say so. I mean you are intelligent, and you know about law, so I would think you could bring that logic to it. It might not be the same as if Ramsay MacMullen did it. But it would be a different result I think than if you just purely fabricated something without beginning with a base line premise of "What if X never did Y" and thinking your way through it. Now certainly that might not result in something you would personally find appealing or compelling (or true enough) but I still think that can lead to believable worlds oriented more around world building as a thought experiment than as pure invention.

I am not saying you could write a counterfactual book that should be published, nor that I could, but I think we can both engage in the exercise of it.

My assertion is that all they are achieving is imagination and invention. Not knowledge or "realism".

The imagination and invention may be engaging - that's not in dispute.

We just disagree on this point.
 

I wouldn't say so. I mean you are intelligent, and you know about law, so I would think you could bring that logic to it. It might not be the same as if Ramsay MacMullen did it. But it would be a different result I think than if you just purely fabricated something without beginning with a base line premise of "What if X never did Y" and thinking your way through it.

<snip>

I still think that can lead to believable worlds oriented more around world building as a thought experiment than as pure invention.
I agree that different approaches to invention will produce different things.

My assertion is that this doesn't stop them being inventions and (in our current context) works of imagination.

To present a stark example: I can build my Lego spaceport based on ideas about what looks cool (having just watched Star Wars or Star Trek or whatever); or based on my ideas about what would make sense in a spaceport (say, fuel tanks, launch pads, etc). The two things I'm making up might end up looking different. But they're still both things that I made up! (Given that everything I know about space travel I learned from reading some popular histories, a bit of Wikipedia, and watching movies.)
 

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