Why do so many people refer to Forgotten Realms as "High Magic?"

[Dark Jezter]

The 3.0 Dungeon Master's Guide contains suggestions about running low magic and high magic campaigns as opposed to a regular-magic setting as presented in the D&D rules. In the 3.0 DMG, it is stated that in high magic worlds, spellcasters and magic items are twice as common as in regular D&D settings, and most characters have a level or two in wizard or sorcerer (even a shopkeeper might be a first-level spellcaster). In fact, in a high magic setting, magic is as prevelent as technology in our modern-day world.

Yet, I will often see people on these forums refer to FR as a high magic setting (usually in a deragatory sense). Last time I checked, most FR characters don't have a level or two in an arcane spellcasting class, and magic items are just as difficult to obtain as they are in Greyhawk and other D&D settings. Granted, some places like Halruaa and Thay contain more spellcasters that the rest of Faerun, but even these locations probably wouldn't qualify as high magic settings.

So, can anybody explain why it's so fashionable to refer to FR as high magic? Because from where I'm standing, I'd say that FR is a "moderate magic" or "regular magic" setting.

 

[Davelozzi]

People refering to the Realms as "high magic" here aren't refering simply to the official 3rd edition definition of high magic. For those of us that grew up on previous editions, the level of magic was left to the DM (wealth by level guidelines weren't provided). For many folks, myself included, the 3rd edition guidelines are indeed a much higher level of magic than we've been used to.

The reason the Realms are often cited as a good example of this may be that there are so many high level mages around, especially relative to many other campaigns. Also, elven high magic, spellfire, Chosen of Mystra, Netheril -- all of these things exceed the power level of the sorts of magic you would historically see in many other settings.

As for the derogatory slant, there's not much you can do about that. Unfortunately, many people have a tendency to look down on anything that's not to their own tastes.

 

[Ackem]

FR gets called High Magic because people are comparing it to their conceptions about fantasy worlds, which mainly originate in literature, and not comparing it to base D&D. There are very few books that have as magic heavy a world as the D&D standard, much less FR-realm standard, and the only novels I can think of as high magic as D&D's idea of High Magic is Harry Potter and Death of the Necromancer.

From the perspective of someone who never touched D&D til 3rd edition and 20 years of age, but who had read literally hundreds of fantasy novels prior to that, FR strikes me as ridiculously over the top in regards to magic. I can only deal with the most basic of basic D&D by killing off alot of the common magic, all of the interventionist gods, and any raising of the dead; I'm not going to even try to deal with FR and it's hordes of EVEN MORE MAGIC, it's gods that wander around and say "sup", and every single village having a wizard capable of whomping Gandalf's butt.

 

[Dark Jezter]

FR gets called High Magic because people are comparing it to their conceptions about fantasy worlds, which mainly originate in literature, and not comparing it to base D&D. There are very few books that have as magic heavy a world as the D&D standard, much less FR-realm standard, and the only novels I can think of as high magic as D&D's idea of High Magic is Harry Potter and Death of the Necromancer.

If you want a real example of a high magic world, check out Piers Anthony's Xanth novels. Everything is magical there.

 

[hong]

People refering to the Realms as "high magic" here aren't refering simply to the official 3rd edition definition of high magic. For those of us that grew up on previous editions, the level of magic was left to the DM (wealth by level guidelines weren't provided). For many folks, myself included, the 3rd edition guidelines are indeed a much higher level of magic than we've been used to.

What kills me is how the same people who call FR high magic will also often describe Greyhawk as low magic, all within the context of the 3E ruleset.

Like, hello in there?

We're not even talking about the USS Enterprise vs a Star Destroyer anymore. It's Enterprise B vs Enterprise C or Enterprise D.


Hong "but Darth Maul would still win, with Raistlin coming a distant third" Ooi

 

[Ackem]

If you want a real example of a high magic world, check out Piers Anthony's Xanth novels. Everything is magical there.

No thanks. I managed to read some of the first Bio of a Space Tyrant novels and some of Demons Don't Dream prior to being overcome by nausea due to Anthony's relentless pedophilia.

Thinking about it, most credible novels with really really high levels of magic often include some industrialized and more modern elements (ala Perdio Street Station, Death of the Necromancer, Newton's Cannon, and the Taltos novels) in the ways that society has been changed. I think alot of my distaste for D&D high magic, especially FR high magic, is that it's high magic pasted on a very fuedal european world, which it doesn't fit.

 

[I'm A Banana]

FR is "higher magic."

A LOT of people have levels in a wizarding class. There is a GLUT of ways and methods to do magic. Magic items are a large, industrialized industry. Wizards rule the world, and get special blessings. Something that isn't magical is VERY rare.

This is different than Greyhawk, for instance, because there's a lot of people with fighter-style classes, only really one way to do magic, which is still a secretive kind of coven, and the gods don't regularly make uber NPC's.

There may not be any more common magical items in FR, but magical items in general in FR are easier to get, because there's a LOT of powerful wizards just hangnin' around, chillin' and makin' items. Most nations in FR have magically enhanced things, and magic is a common luxury for the rich and powerful -- someone without a magic sword in FR is just out of the loop....not just under a rock, but under a rock on a moon. On GH, you've got a bunch of magical items, but not EVERYONE does.

Basically, I guess there's more commoners in GH than in FR. And that means that FR has more magic than the norm.

The roots of this, as I understand it, is that FR has a lot of fallen empires of magic, and not all of those secrets are still forgotten.

 

[Dark Jezter]

A LOT of people have levels in a wizarding class. There is a GLUT of ways and methods to do magic. Magic items are a large, industrialized industry. Wizards rule the world, and get special blessings. Something that isn't magical is VERY rare.

Not as many people as you might think have levels in arcane spellcasting classes. The FRCS states that in the Heartlands (Cormyr, Sembia, and the Dalelands), only about one person in a hundred has the ability to use wizardry or sorcery, and half of them are only dabblers. In some places (such as Halruaa, Nimbral, elven communities, or gnomish communities), people with the ability to use magic are much more common, but even then they don't make up more than a small percentage of the population.

As for wizards ruling the world, that is true of certain places, but Toril is a very large place.

This is different than Greyhawk, for instance, because there's a lot of people with fighter-style classes, only really one way to do magic, which is still a secretive kind of coven, and the gods don't regularly make uber NPC's.

Warriors are common in the Realms as well. Durnan, Artemis Entreri, Jarlaxle, the late King Azoun, Obould Many-Arrows, King Emerus Warcrown, Bruenor Battlehammer, and Drizzt Do'Urden are just a few of the famous warriors that are known in the realms.

There may not be any more common magical items in FR, but magical items in general in FR are easier to get, because there's a LOT of powerful wizards just hangnin' around, chillin' and makin' items. Most nations in FR have magically enhanced things, and magic is a common luxury for the rich and powerful -- someone without a magic sword in FR is just out of the loop....not just under a rock, but under a rock on a moon. On GH, you've got a bunch of magical items, but not EVERYONE does.

The Thayan enclaves have made magical items more readily available in large cities, but even then magical items are hardly common. A simple +1 dagger still costs almost 2,000 gold pieces. Considering that the average commoner only makes 1 silver piece per day, they could save up for their entire lifetime and still not be able to afford one. Even a wealthy nation could not afford to equip more than a few of its soldiers with magical weapons and armor.

Magic items are usually posessed only by adventurers, aristocrats, and high-ranking or elite military personel.

Basically, I guess there's more commoners in GH than in FR. And that means that FR has more magic than the norm.

FR Regional suppliments such as The Silver Marches and The Unapproachable East have the population breakdowns of each major city. Rest assured that the majority of people in the Realms are 1st-level commoners.

The roots of this, as I understand it, is that FR has a lot of fallen empires of magic, and not all of those secrets are still forgotten.

The key word here is "fallen." None of the magical empires exist anymore. In fact, after the fall of Netheril, the gods limited just how powerful magic could be.

 

[Darkness]

... after the fall of Netheril, the gods limited just how powerful magic could be.

...Which is why the upcoming Player's Guide to the FR will include a writeup for the Karsus' Avatar spell as an epic spell.

Heh. You're talking about previous editions here; no matter what flavor text might (or might not) say, the 3.0 and (especially) 3.5 rules don't really seem to reflect that part of back story.
(But then, maybe the current Mystra just changed how things work; she's not the person who set up that limit in the first place. Either that, or else they just retconned it to reflect the new edition of D&D. In any case, epic-level spells seem to be available in the FR. And that means that there is only a practical limit to how powerful spells can get - namely the availability of really really high-level spellcaster with the appropriate feat.)

Also, while not everyone might have spellcasting ability (which is a rather high-powered definition of 'high magic' anyway), it's a setting assumption in the FR that arcane spellcasters are more common than given in the DMG. For example, I refer you to p.297 of the FRCS, where it is stated:

Wizards and sorcerers are somewhat more prevalent in Faerun than they are assumed to be in the DMG. On Table 4-43, Highest-Level Locals (PC Classes), treat the sorcerer entry as 1d6 + community modifier (instead of 1d4) and the wizard entry as 1d8 + community modifier (again, instead of 1d4). Just about every thorp or hamlet boasts at least one wielder of the Art, even if that person is a humble hedge wizard.

This means:
1) Higher-level spellcasters.
2) More spellcasters.

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Now, don't get me wrong; I certainly agree that, by the definition of 'everyone has a level or two in spellcaster' (or some such), the FR are not a high magic setting.
What I don't agree with is the definition itself; YMMV.
In any case, it's a provable fact that the FR has a higher level of magic than the baseline assumed in the core rulebooks. Whether or not it's too high is a matter of taste. Personally, I don't mind it - but I wouldn't mind a lower level of magic either.

 

[Treebore]

FR is just like any other campaign world, magic is as common or uncommon as the DM wants. Since magic is common to the PC's, who cares? If anything it should give the DM more leeway with how much the NPC's have.

FR does not have more High level wizards than GH, it just had more of them detailed. GH had just as many wizard enclaves and temples in which magic could have been manufactured. SO did any other WOTC/TSR campaign world, except maybe Darksun. It was up to the DM to decide how much those enclaves and temples did in the way of making magic items.

Personally, I think any campaign ran with all of the rules has to be a high magic game, unless the DM goes out of their way to have limits.

If you think about it how many ways can you explain all those magic items found in hoards? You have to have a dynamic history and life to your whole campaign world for it to all make sense. Assuming you are going for as much realism as possible.

The ways I limit magic is through requiring rare components. Removing that from 3e was a huge mistake in terms of being able to have a "low" magic game. Other ways are to have oppressive governments or powerful religions that outlaw magic or are doing their best to make it rare. Have them regulated by the powers that be.

HAve arcane and divine casters actually be rare. To even have a PC spellcaster the character must be "blessed" by the gods. To reflect this the player must roll an 01 through 10 on d100 to even be allowed to roll up a spellcaster of any kind.

Generallly, i go with the flow as long as we are all having fun.