Why do so many people refer to Forgotten Realms as "High Magic?"

[TiQuinn]

The difference is that it appears (and I won't claim that I know for sure either way, being no FR expert) that FR is super-saturated with magic occurences, items, equipment and characters far in excess of Greyhawk and some other settings. That isn't a problem, but some folks find it unappealing.

And it's also a function of how much development went into FR over the years as opposed to Greyhawk. Take a look at the first FR box set, and it's also a world filled with some incredible characters and items, but for the most part, it's a blank slate. There was certainly no Volo around to tell everyone about the level and inventory of every shopkeeper from Waterdeep to Thay. FR became the most popular setting, and Greyhawk didn't. Therefore, more time and effort went into developing one over the other. I think it's pretty safe to say that if Greyhawk had been equal in popularity as FR, we would've seen much of the same move towards the fantastic as we see in FR.

 

[Darkness]

Someone - I think it was Sean K Reynolds on his boards - noted that epic level spells are not bound by the restriction that banned 10th-12th level spells (and neither are spells metamagicked to that level). So none of these fall for the restriction.

Same difference - epic spells aren't bound by the restriction but spells that used to be 10th- and higher-level spells are built as epic spells now. Meaning the same spells can still exist (and some just might, even though they cut K's Avatar).

Hm. Maybe 10th+ level spells were easier to cast than their new epic equivalents. I.e., it's a restriction of ease of use, rather than one of power.

 

[Henry]

I'll add a couple of points here:

1) It appears to me that the 3rd edition definition of "normal levels of magic" was redefined WITH the Forgotten Realms in mind; the idea of one out of a hundred people having spellcasting ability is still "high magic" by many definitions. You couldn't find 100 spellcasters in the ENTIRE Lord of the Rings Saga, unless I'm mistaken. Also, remember that "spellcaster" does not just refer to arcane magics, but divine as well, and there as THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of spell-hurling priests in the Realms.

Greyhawk doesn't have two super-dungeon settings like Myth Drannor (a dungeon city) AND the thing under Waterdeep (undermountain?).

2) Actually, it's got 'em, they just aren't referred to much. One is the in-mountan passages in the Suelhaut mountains that half of the descendants of the Suel Imperium are hanging out in (listed in the Old 1977 Boxed set). Another is the miles upon miles of underdark caverns that form the basis of the D1-D3 Modules. Undeveloped in 3E? DEFINITELY. But present in "Greyhawk Canon."

 

[d4]

the idea of one out of a hundred people having spellcasting ability is still "high magic" by many definitions. You couldn't find 100 spellcasters in the ENTIRE Lord of the Rings Saga, unless I'm mistaken.

yep. or look at something like Jack Vance's Lyonesse, in which on an island of about the size and population of medieval Great Britain, there are seven (count 'em, SEVEN) spellcasters on the whole island. (i believe they all get listed in a footnote somewhere early on in the book.)

[edit]wow, it's been a long time since i read that book. i was wrong on two counts: Lyonesse is only the size of Ireland, and there were eight magicians, not seven.

 

[TiQuinn]

2) Actually, it's got 'em, they just aren't referred to much. One is the in-mountan passages in the Suelhaut mountains that half of the descendants of the Suel Imperium are hanging out in (listed in the Old 1977 Boxed set). Another is the miles upon miles of underdark caverns that form the basis of the D1-D3 Modules. Undeveloped in 3E? DEFINITELY. But present in "Greyhawk Canon."

Not to mention Castle Greyhawk itself. Exactly how many levels did Gygax say he wrote for that thing?

Also, the Temple of Elemental Evil is pretty dang big too.

 

[Altalazar]

FR is about the same level of magic as standard D&D. So anyone who calls FR "high magic" is really just calling 3E "high magic".

Which is fine - some people prefer the rusty-dagger approach to epic play.

 

[billd91]

And it's also a function of how much development went into FR over the years as opposed to Greyhawk. Take a look at the first FR box set, and it's also a world filled with some incredible characters and items, but for the most part, it's a blank slate. There was certainly no Volo around to tell everyone about the level and inventory of every shopkeeper from Waterdeep to Thay. FR became the most popular setting, and Greyhawk didn't. Therefore, more time and effort went into developing one over the other. I think it's pretty safe to say that if Greyhawk had been equal in popularity as FR, we would've seen much of the same move towards the fantastic as we see in FR.

It's not just a question of how much development went into FR. I think GH was never meant to be as heavily developed from the central TSR authorities. It's far more of a tinkering DM's campaign where large portions are intentionally left undeveloped.
The Volo guides are, I think, one of the major reasons that FR are called HIGH magic to GH's more MEDIUM magic (note: GH isn't really LOW magic, that would be a setting more like Sanctuary or Hyperboria). It's not just the spectral hands, either. How about the sections of wall kept ethereally to repair Waterdeep's city walls in case of breach or the units of golems? That's some pretty way out magical stuff compared to other fantasy realms.
But it's not just the Volo guides. Look through most of the regional guidebooks and you'll probably find that there are a surprising number of 15th+ level wizards stumbling around out there. Realistically, they're there so that DMs have a source to use to challenge PCs of increasingly high levels, but the impression still sticks that you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an arch-mage.
I won't even get into how many innkeepers have a magic sword and suit of armor hidden in their living space because they used to be adventurers...

 

[Numion]

I won't even get into how many innkeepers have a magic sword and suit of armor hidden in their living space because they used to be adventurers...

Considering the wonky economics the innkeeper should just sell the armor and sword, he'd make a lot of more money than running that joint for the rest of his life!

My opinion about FR is though that it plays pretty much the same as any other setting I've played. It may appear high-magic because of elminster or somesuch novel personas, but in actual play it follows the D&D baseline.

Just like the circle of eight (a GH group of elminsters) doesn't factor into how GH plays, neither does El have effect on actual FR play. Of course some singular DM can wreck his campaign with Mordie, El or that big-ass kalamar archmage, but thats hardly descriptive of those settings.

I'm willing to bet that every major setting has a big-ass mage or a few in there. Kalamar, FR, GH and Midnight have. They're given too much ENWorld bandwith considering how much time in play they actually see, IMHO.

 

[WizarDru]

Not to mention Castle Greyhawk itself. Exactly how many levels did Gygax say he wrote for that thing?

Also, the Temple of Elemental Evil is pretty dang big too.

Point taken. I agree that Greyhawk isn't low magic, and I think it's pretty silly for anyone to claim otherwise. I don't take it as a given that increased coverage would have translated into the same kind of material as the Realms, though. It's true that the original boxed set was no different than Greyhawk, in terms of magic or development. But I think the tone of the realms is just plain different. I think they're two different flavors for two different audiences. I don't think it's 'higher magic' so much as 'more in your face and visible to the everyday observer magic'.

Greyhawk was never really used as a setting, per se, outside of the two box sets. Most Greyhawk modules, such as ToEE, could easily be dropped into another campaign without much trouble...whereas most Realms modules are much more integrated into their setting. Both approaches have their advantages, and sometimes I like one or the other more, depending on the situaiton. I don't really count the Underdark as much, since it exists in both settings, and I think of it as more of an alternate country than a super-dungeon, in either setting.

 

[Pseudonym]

I'm willing to bet that every major setting has a big-ass mage or a few in there. Kalamar, FR, GH and Midnight have. They're given too much ENWorld bandwith considering how much time in play they actually see, IMHO.

Amen to that.