D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Chaosmancer]

@Chaosmancer, the book doesn't specify what most human commoners fight with, therefore the base assumption in default settings would be whatever's at hand. Which means basic farm implements, not specialized weapons. Some might have wood axes*, but that's about it. I don't see why they'd have much more than halfling commoners.

The other thing you keep ignoring or dismissing out of hand is that halflings are protected somehow, in a way that appears to be supernatural. People get turned around, lose their way, don't notice paths (which, having done a lot of hiking is not hard to do). Do they explicitly spell out how? No, a blessing from Yondalla is as good as any other or maybe it's just their innate luck.

Either accept the book as written or make your own version.

The base assumption is that they use the implements they have at hand along with group tactics to drive off the occasional single ogre that shows up once every few decades. Their villages are rarely targeted due being in non-strategic locations with little inherent value and a fair portion of luck. In addition, they state that they get along well with others so settling in reasonably peaceful lands makes a lot of sense.

Your version of halflings? Whatever makes sense for your campaign.

I don't see an issue.

*You may have mentioned sickles and/or scythes ... have you ever used either? I have and I don't see either one being much more effective than your basic club.

13th time? 14th time? I'm losing track.

I did homebrew halflings for my own game.
I did homebrew halflings for my own game.
I did homebrew halflings for my own game.
I did homebrew halflings for my own game.

How many times do I have to say this? Really? I made my own version. I'm happy with my own version. I've told you guys at least twice what my version is.

You say the book doesn't specify what commoners can fight with? I gave you a list. All of the things a village would likely have lying around. The book tells us that instead of those things a human commoner might use, because they are what is at hand, halflings use sticks and rocks.

Not clubs and slings. Not hand axes and knives. Not sickles and scythes. Sticks and rocks. You say I should either accept that or make my own version. Well, I did homebrew halflings for my own game, because I saw using sticks and rocks as a laughable way to fight off the dangers of something like an Ogre. Per the rules, they would be equally effective punching it. Imagine some 3ft tall halflings driving off a 10 ft tall massive ogre by punching it and throwing little rocks at it.

Go to page 220 of Mordenkainen's. Look at that Ogre with the battering ram. The one with three crossbow bolts buried halfway to the fletching in his shoulders. Tell me how you drive him off with some thrown stones, by hand, by some halfling farmers?

I did homebrew halflings for my own game, but that doesn't mean I can't point to the book and say "this doesn't make any sense"

Well, I guess it must, because I've been insulted, derided and mocked for days because I don't accept the book version.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I already do. I have stated as much.

But apparently my criticism of how TSR, WOTC, and many D&d adjacent designers means that I hate halflings.

I have been accused of hating halflings several times when I offer any criticism of how halflings are treated. It's basically a "How dare you say such a thing!" Some won't even admit that halflings are treated different.

Halflings are treated differently. I believe all iconic races should be treated in similar fashion.

Gimme a Hat of Halflingkind magic item and a picture of some badass halflings warriors and mages front and center in the PHB.

Not Bigbead Musician Number One Bighead Musician Number Two and Reject Bilbo Baggins.

So, you don’t see how you come across as just not liking Halflings? Really?

Or how them not meeting your preference for PHB art (and I despise most Halfling art in 5e) has nothing to do with how iconic they are?

Dwarves and Elves have famous magic items and warrior cults and arcane/divine traditions. That’s their thing.

Halflings not having the same kind of society doesn’t mean the game is treating them “different” (srsly what does this even mean!?), or being treated as secondary. They’re a core people of D&D, and they are friendly rustic folk who don’t adventure For profit alone.

 

[Gammadoodler]

The fantasy plants was not something I said couldn't work. It was something that I said would alter the entire world if introduced like you said.

You then tried to tell me that everyone except halflings are commercial farmers while halflings are hobby farmers, so halflings can have these special plants, but no one else would grow them, because despite them being valuable spices, they wouldn't be the stuff everyone is selling.

And remember, my position, the thing I've been arguing for, is that halflings should have some sort of trained militia and defenses for their villages. Something I require of all of my races, meaning I extend the same requirements to every race. Everyone should have some sort of fighting force to deal with monsters and raids, and they should either have walls or be nomadic to defend their homes.

However, that is not acceptable to many people on this thread. Who instead insist I must hate halflings and run a world without joy and light, because I force them to fight to defend their homes.



What core racial features of halflings are you referring to? Lucky or Brave? Maybe halfling nimbleness to move through spaces of larger creatures?

Oh, you were referring to the lightfoot ability to hide behind larger creatures. And then, by growing plants or making earthworks which have nothing to do with the ability to hide behind larger creatures, they could then hide their entire village, multi-acre farms, orchards, and any animals they have.

And yes, I didn't expand upon gnomes using illusions to hide their villages. What would you like me to do? List every illusion spell that lasts longer than a minute? Discuss the Illusionist subclass of wizard? Search out magical items that can affect a location that might be built by a race of natural artificers?

But, you see my problem. If I argue with you about practical skills hiding the village, then I get told by @Maxperson that I'm twisting the argument because it is the gods who hide them via god magic. And if I argue that that is just hand-waving, then I get told by you that I allowed handwaving because I didn't specify dwarven acreage and so I'm being a hypocrite because I hand wave all the time for everything.

No matter whose point I discuss, the other one will leap upon me for being a bad faith debater, force me to change arguments, just so the other one can repeat it for the other side.

And all I wanted was a trained militia and a wall. Hell, I have gnomes have a trained militia, and they have hidden villages via illusion magic. But, that just proves that I handwave everything because I can't possbily have gnomish militias, they don't have any stats to allow for fighting. Or something like that. Depends on which of you guys jumps down my throat first.

We're getting to the point where were arguing about the argument. Which I suppose we can continue..

Fantasy plants, mushrooms, goats, whatever, are exactly as valuable and alter the world exactly as much as the DM says. And what I've held to is that halflings are distinctly not commercial farmers, which means they grow plants to make the best tasting food for them. So, just because they can grow saffron (or fantasy saffron), doesn't mean they grow saffron to the exclusion of other less valuable crops. They grow the stuff that tastes good with saffron. For farms where the focus is commercial, dedicating time, energy, and space for a crop with a lower return is a sacrifice those farmers feel, that the halfling farmer does not.

(By the way, the prestidigitation cantrip could single-handedly render the spice trade, if it even exists, obsolete. So making a big deal out of how many wars have been started for flavor IRL kind of misses some key ways that D&D settings are not the same as real life)

And as it relates to your position, my understanding is not just that they should have a trained militia or whatever, but that they need to have such a force or "they don't make sense". Incidentally, I disagree with both. Neither of us is right though, it's purely fantasy preference.

And I directly compared Naturally Stealthy with Natural Illusionist. Both of which are subrace abilities, and neither of which is particularly useful in hiding a village.. as baselines for extrapolation. If a race is naturally good at illusions...then how does that race guard their homes vs. if a race is naturally good at being stealthy...then how does that race guard their homes.

As it relates to your unwillingness so far to state how the gnome illusionists would accomplish their goals, I mean, fair is fair. I gave you generalities for the rogue, and you demanded specifics. So I gave you specifics, and then you required detailed logistics in order to go beyond "that's quite a stretch". If you are unwilling to discuss your particulars and logistics, then don't demand them of others.

And at the end of the day, you keep missing my point about the hand waving. I don't actually care if you do it. I care that you object so stridently to others doing it. It's like some kind of weird blind spot.

 

[Minigiant]

So, you don’t see how you come across as just not liking Halflings? Really?

Or how them not meeting your preference for PHB art (and I despise most Halfling art in 5e) has nothing to do with how iconic they are?

Dwarves and Elves have famous magic items and warrior cults and arcane/divine traditions. That’s their thing.

Halflings not having the same kind of society doesn’t mean the game is treating them “different” (srsly what does this even mean!?), or being treated as secondary. They’re a core people of D&D, and they are friendly rustic folk who don’t adventure For profit alone.

I'mnot saying aren't core.

I'm saying that halflings are being different and not as a core race.

And that's why halflings are not a popular race anymore. Because of decades being treated like like a joke.

Look at the halflings on page 26, 120, and 132. Those sure are cool adventurers who delve dungeons, slay dragons, and fight dark lords.

Now Lidda. Lidda was a cool halfling. Lidda could inspire you to make a lot of different halflings.
The 4e halflings. Badass and cool. And if youwanted to be rustic,they could work as rustic. And they give you lore to play the old way and newer ways.

But 1e. 2e, and 5e practically pigeoholes halflings as folk heroes.

You can say that is there charm. That halflings have this specialness that can't be denied. But TSR/WOTC were/are overdoing it. And the typecasting is making people not play an iconic raceas serious characters and DM not include halfling villages as serious plotpoints.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The unusual usually are not placed at the tier of the usual.

Can you explain why you believe this is true?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'mnot saying aren't core.

I didn’t say you were?

I'm saying that halflings are being different and not as a core race.

And I’m asking for an explanation as to why you believe that.

And that's why halflings are not a popular race anymore. Because of decades being treated like like a joke.

They...are still popular.

Look at the halflings on page 26, 120, and 132. Those sure are cool adventurers who delve dungeons, slay dragons, and fight dark lords.

So, ignoring the terrible bobble headed design, they look like fun characters.

Now Lidda. Lidda was a cool halfling. Lidda could inspire you to make a lot of different halflings.
The 4e halflings. Badass and cool. And if youwanted to be rustic,they could work as rustic. And they give you lore to play the old way and newer ways.

So, rustic people whose lore focus isn’t warfare and such aren’t your jam.

But 1e. 2e, and 5e practically pigeoholes halflings as folk heroes.

You can say that is there charm. That halflings have this specialness that can't be denied. But TSR/WOTC were/are overdoing it. And the typecasting is making people not play an iconic raceas serious characters and DM not include halfling villages as serious plotpoints.

Can you show that this is true beyond your own group and a couple other people in this thread, or show any evidence of the causality you’re suggesting?

 

[Minigiant]

They...are still popular.

not as popular as other iconic races

So, ignoring the terrible bobble headed design, they look like fun characters.

Didn't say they weren't.
I said they are pigeonholed due to so much removed from the race and so little put back it.

So, rustic people whose lore focus isn’t warfare and such aren’t your jam.

Didn't say it was.
I said they are pigeonholed due to so much removed from the race and so little put back it.

Can you show that this is true beyond your own group and a couple other people in this thread, or show any evidence of the causality you’re suggesting?

Data from D&DBeyond stating that they are not in the top 4 played and only really play as rogue and sometimes bard.
My guess folk hero rogue.
They got passed by Half Orc. Half Orcs!

 

[Maxperson]

No, @Oofta did. I'm sorry did you disagree with him when he proposed halflings making fine lace, glass figurines and all of those other finely crafted goods? I must of missed that exchange you two had.

Or maybe you ignored him in favor of agreeing that I had to be wrong about halfling trade. So hard to remember what points you disagreed with, since you never disagreed with any of them.

Why would you falsely attribute his arguments to me?

I'm sorry, this is just hilarious.

You wanted me to go and get a racial feat for a subrace, and apply that to the gnomish race, while at the same time I'm being lambasted for daring to assume that they have anyone higher than 1st level, to use their illusion magic, which is as everyone has reminded me, only minor illusion and nothing else.

I don't want you to do any such thing and said so in the post you quoted, so you knew that before twisting my argument to "want me to go and get a racial feat...". The deep gnomes have those abilities per the lore regardless of whether feats are used or not. This is a fact unless you homebrew the lore into something else.

I'm going to call you out each and every time you twist one of my arguments.

Oh! And for the race of gnomes who live in the underdark, who aren't the gnomes described in the PHB that everyone has been talking about.

Nobody limited this to the PHB. That's why, and stay with me here.....................................we have been discussing Mordenkainen's lore.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm sorry, that is not what everyone has been telling me.

First of all, there are no guards. Depending on if I'm listening to @Maxperson or not guards and soldiers only exist in cities. Nothing smaller.

Your deliberate twisting of my words is boorish. I never said anything about a the few guards in a town. Soldiers weren't generally quartered in towns unless there was a war going on.

 

[Maxperson]

But, you see my problem. If I argue with you about practical skills hiding the village, then I get told by @Maxperson that I'm twisting the argument because it is the gods who hide them via god magic. And if I argue that that is just hand-waving, then I get told by you that I allowed handwaving because I didn't specify dwarven acreage and so I'm being a hypocrite because I hand wave all the time for everything.

Good God! You really can't help yourself, can you? I didn't say you were twisting "the argument." I said you were twisting MY argument. Mine. In the discussion you and I are having.

If you are discussing skills hiding villages with someone else, it would not be twisting "the argument" to respond to skills hiding(or not) a village.