D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

I'm using D&DBeyond numbers on popular races.
Halflings aren't high among the free races.
Does it say zero people are playing them? No it doesn't. Ergo You claim that "no one is playing them" is verifiably false, thereby invalidating everything you say.

If you want to argue that race X is less popular than race Y, that's fine, but also irrelevant. It doesn't mean race X shouldn't exist.

I think it's fair to say that amongst younger players there may be a drift away from Tolkienesque races. That includes elves and dwarves as well as halflings, and other "cute" races are coming in to fill the halfling niche. Pathfinder's cutesy goblins being the most obvious example.
 
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Does it say zero people are playing them? No it doesn't. Ergo You claim that "no one is playing them" is verifiably false, thereby invalidating everything you say.

If you want to argue that race X is less popular as race Y, that's fine, but also irrelevant. It doesn't mean race X shouldn't exist.

It's called exaggerating. Saying no one is playing doesn't mean I am saying zero peple are. I even stated that some people are.

I am saying very very few people are playing a race that is deemed one of the most iconic races.

Also I don't want Halflings removed. I don't hate halflings. I just think TSR and WOTC did/are doing the dirty and letting an iconic race fade away by treating them poorly. When all the older fans die out, age out, or move to other games, halflings will struggle to be 5% of played PCs and major NPCs.
 

TSR hasn't existed for a long long time. And as I keep saying WotC make plenty of use of halflings (who are not supposed to be particularly numerous or prominent) in their adventures.

I suspect elves, dwarves and halflings will all fade into the background over time, and new races with take over their niches. There are more tieflings and dragonborn NPCs than elves in RotFM. But that doesn't matter and they will still be available for those who want them.
 

If you look at Gloomhaven, that throws away all the traditional fantasy races in exchange for new ones, but you can still find parallels.

Inox: half orc
Quatryl: gnome
Savvas: dwarf
Vermling: Halfling
Orchid: elf
Valrath: tiefling

If you look at Pillars of Eternity, it has elves and dwarves, but replaces half orcs with aumaua, halflings with orlans and teiflings/aasimar with godlike.

As Shakespeare said, a halfling by any other name would be as short.
 

If you look at Gloomhaven, that throws away all the traditional fantasy races in exchange for new ones, but you can still find parallels.

Inox: half orc
Quatryl: gnome
Savvas: dwarf
Vermling: Halfling
Orchid: elf
Valrath: tiefling

If you look at Pillars of Eternity, it has elves and dwarves, but replaces half orcs with aumaua, halflings with orlans and teiflings/aasimar with godlike.

As Shakespeare said, a halfling by any other name would be as short.
orlans also seem to have a lot of goblin mixed in.
 

We're getting to the point where were arguing about the argument. Which I suppose we can continue..

Fantasy plants, mushrooms, goats, whatever, are exactly as valuable and alter the world exactly as much as the DM says. And what I've held to is that halflings are distinctly not commercial farmers, which means they grow plants to make the best tasting food for them. So, just because they can grow saffron (or fantasy saffron), doesn't mean they grow saffron to the exclusion of other less valuable crops. They grow the stuff that tastes good with saffron. For farms where the focus is commercial, dedicating time, energy, and space for a crop with a lower return is a sacrifice those farmers feel, that the halfling farmer does not.

Sure, as much as the DM says, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the impact of those things just because a DM can decide that they are meaningless.

And, your assumptions about commercialism are what I keep challenging on this stance.

First off, a point I haven't raised before, but if Halflings are paying taxes to a human lord, those taxes traditionally came in the form of crops. So, if human farmers are commercial farmers, then halfling farmers would be the same. Unless you are trying to say that all humans grow crops exclusively to make as much money as possible, and nothing else, when farming was. traditionally, one of the poorest occupations of the time.

Secondly, "commercial farming" arose in the 1700's alongside the industrial revolution. It seems like an incredibly odd thing to assume as standard for all humans when we are assuming a culture and world closer to the 1300's nearly 400 years earlier.

And finally, you are presenting the idea of commercial farming as being the reason that the humans would not grow, in this specific example, Saffron. But that is backwards. The spices were the most valuable crops, they would be what is grown to the exclusion of the less valuable food crops if we were assuming a commercial farming model. You keep presenting it like humans would grow the less valuable crops because all they care about is growing the crops with the most value. That is logically inconsistent. If there existed fantasy saffron that could be grown in the region, humans would grow it, just like you are saying the halflings would.

(By the way, the prestidigitation cantrip could single-handedly render the spice trade, if it even exists, obsolete. So making a big deal out of how many wars have been started for flavor IRL kind of misses some key ways that D&D settings are not the same as real life)

True.

I generally consider that prestidigitation can't make a flavor that the caster hasn't tasted. I know that isn't quite RAW, but it makes sense to me that you can't make something you've never experienced. Add to that the idea that memories of flavors tend to distort, and I'd say you would have some small amount of trade even with wide-spread cantrip use to make sure that the chef can accurately recreate the flavor.

I then imagine that the idea of authenticity would take over. For those wealthy enough, the would seek out and import the "real deal" much like anyone can buy a steak, but only the wealthy tend to get 100% authentic Kobe Steaks.

It certainly would distort the trade though, and offer different incentives depending on how wide spread magic use in the kitchen was, when it came about compared to when the trade routes were established, and a few other noodly factors.


And as it relates to your position, my understanding is not just that they should have a trained militia or whatever, but that they need to have such a force or "they don't make sense". Incidentally, I disagree with both. Neither of us is right though, it's purely fantasy preference.

By my reckoning, your preference leaves halflings completely dissociated with the world. The worlds of DnD are worlds of danger. Even if you aren't on the border, you could have a cult summoning demons or a necromancer trying to overthrow the town and make himself the lord of the dead. Putting halflings in a space where they are completely isolated and protected from danger, to the point where they don't have a militia ready to defend their homes, seems incredible to me.

So yes, I think every village and town needs a trained militia. A few people with real weapons and real armor to defend them in the worst case scenarios. That accurately reflects how people react to dangerous situations, they think of ways to protect themselves.

And I directly compared Naturally Stealthy with Natural Illusionist. Both of which are subrace abilities, and neither of which is particularly useful in hiding a village.. as baselines for extrapolation. If a race is naturally good at illusions...then how does that race guard their homes vs. if a race is naturally good at being stealthy...then how does that race guard their homes.

As it relates to your unwillingness so far to state how the gnome illusionists would accomplish their goals, I mean, fair is fair. I gave you generalities for the rogue, and you demanded specifics. So I gave you specifics, and then you required detailed logistics in order to go beyond "that's quite a stretch". If you are unwilling to discuss your particulars and logistics, then don't demand them of others.

And at the end of the day, you keep missing my point about the hand waving. I don't actually care if you do it. I care that you object so stridently to others doing it. It's like some kind of weird blind spot.

See, your comparison is fundamentally flawed. I'm not talking about Natural Illusionist at all. I'm talking about the PHB write up that says gnomes are masters of illusion magic. Other people came in and began deriding that because all gnomes get as a racial ability is minor illusion, but that is like saying that Dwarves are poor blacksmiths because all they get as a racial ability is proficiency, and every blacksmith gets proficiency from the background. It ignores the associated lore.

And that is why I pressed for specifics on how halflings would hide. Not because I care about how much handwaving you are doing, but because there is nothing in the lore that provides practical skill use for halflings to hide. They are farmers and river boaters, per the PHB, which are not skill sets that lend themselves well to camoflauging an entire village. Something I think you recognized, because you immediately jumped to these villages being hid by mid-level rogues. But, even a level 12 rogue can't build a false bottom to a treasure chest if they aren't a carpenter. And if they don't have more than proficiency, then they aren't better than any other carpenter would be at the same task. So, either building a false bottom is something any carpenter can do, or you need some other explanation for why your rogue can do something extraordinary beyond their shared skills.
 

Why would you falsely attribute his arguments to me?

I didn't falsely attribute his arguments to you. I said they were his arguments, did you miss it? I did the whole @ thing and everything.

But, you never once counteracted his argument that halflings could make fine quality goods, in fact, you have stated repeatedly that halflings do trade, so they must have something worth trading for, which would be fine quality goods, unless they trade poor quality goods?

I don't want you to do any such thing and said so in the post you quoted, so you knew that before twisting my argument to "want me to go and get a racial feat...". The deep gnomes have those abilities per the lore regardless of whether feats are used or not. This is a fact unless you homebrew the lore into something else.

I'm going to call you out each and every time you twist one of my arguments.

Wood Elves have their magic in the lore too, so again, am I to simply assume that all Wood elves have Pass Without a Trace?

You actually, not too long ago, lambasted me for assuming that humans had a feat, based on the variant human racial option, but now we are just going to go forward that all Deep gnomes have this ability, except for PC Deep Gnomes who don't have this ability because feats are optional?

All, by the way, to prove that gnomes were given magic by their gods (not taught which is what it actually says) to prove that halflings being kep safe by their gods isn't an extreme form of divine intervention.

Nobody limited this to the PHB. That's why, and stay with me here.....................................we have been discussing Mordenkainen's lore.

Except no one has been referring to Deep Gnomes, they have been referring to the gnomes in the PHB, hence why everyone kept talking about Minor Illusion. And, actually, @doctorbadwolf has repeatedly tried to limit this to the PHB, because he feels that Mordenkainen's is a load of crap and not worth the paper it is printed with.

Funny how you keep saying "nobody did this" and every time, I can find someone who did exactly that.

Your deliberate twisting of my words is boorish. I never said anything about a the few guards in a town. Soldiers weren't generally quartered in towns unless there was a war going on.

Really? This wasn't you?
Soldiers don't generally hang out in towns. Cities, sure. Raiders don't hit cities.

Oh wait, I see the problem. I've been saying "guards" "militia" and "soldiers" all to refer to "people trained to use weapons and armor" and you were specifically talking about soldiers, so every town having guards is fine, but they can't have soldiers.

Silly me. So you are perfectly fine with armed and armored halfling guards in a village to rally to the defense of their neighbors, they just can't be armed and armored halfling soldiers. Do I have it right?


Good God! You really can't help yourself, can you? I didn't say you were twisting "the argument." I said you were twisting MY argument. Mine. In the discussion you and I are having.

If you are discussing skills hiding villages with someone else, it would not be twisting "the argument" to respond to skills hiding(or not) a village.

Your argument? You were the one who jumped into the discussion about what practical skills could be used to hide the village and declared that I was somehow wrong to even be having the discussion, after flailing about arguing with me about whether or not halflings can make crafts, which wasn't even the discussion being had.

A thing by the way, you are once more reversing position on. As, during that discussion, you went out of your way to insist halflings had many crafts of many professions, and now you want to claim they don't.

Oh, let me guess, it is the qualifier "finely made" that is making all the difference, isn't it? They can have crafts, they can trade, but they can't be finely made crafts, because then your argument about my raiders being 30 IQ because they target a halfling village that has nothing (except all the things you keep saying they have) instead of the rich human village overflowing with gold and gems wouldn't make much sense, would it?
 

But, you never once counteracted his argument that halflings could make fine quality goods, in fact, you have stated repeatedly that halflings do trade, so they must have something worth trading for, which would be fine quality goods, unless they trade poor quality goods?
False Dichotomies are false. There are average goods, fair quality goods, good quality goods. Things don't have to be fine or poor.
Wood Elves have their magic in the lore too, so again, am I to simply assume that all Wood elves have Pass Without a Trace?
False Equivalences are still false. The lore says that Deep Gnomes owe their innate magical abilities to Baravar and those abilities from that feat are the only innate abilities Deep Gnomes have. Therefore there are Deep Gnomes that have them even if PCs don't have access to that feat.

You can choose to assume whatever you like about Wood Elves and Pass Without Trace. There is no assumption with Deep Gnomes and their innate abilities. We know for a fact that they have them unless you house rule it to be otherwise.
You actually, not too long ago, lambasted me for assuming that humans had a feat, based on the variant human racial option, but now we are just going to go forward that all Deep gnomes have this ability, except for PC Deep Gnomes who don't have this ability because feats are optional?
More False Equivalences from you! You never fail to disappoint on the fallacy front.

You were assuming that feats were allowed to PCs. I outright said that this happens per RAW even if no feats are allowed(because it does). One situation(your assumption of feats being used) is not equal to the other(My not assuming feats are being used).
All, by the way, to prove that gnomes were given magic by their gods (not taught which is what it actually says) to prove that halflings being kep safe by their gods isn't an extreme form of divine intervention.
Or for ducks sake. I thought you said you read Mordenkainen's. If you haven't, just admit it.

"Forest gnomes and deep gnomes owe their innate magical abilities to Baravar, and all gnomes get their natural defense against magic from her shrewdness."

It doesn't get any clearer than that.
Except no one has been referring to Deep Gnomes, they have been referring to the gnomes in the PHB, hence why everyone kept talking about Minor Illusion. And, actually, @doctorbadwolf has repeatedly tried to limit this to the PHB, because he feels that Mordenkainen's is a load of crap and not worth the paper it is printed with.
I didn't see that. Do you have a quote from him?
Funny how you keep saying "nobody did this" and every time, I can find someone who did exactly that.
Your ability to get what people say correct is somewhere in the neighborhood(not quite there) of 0%. Unless you can give me a quote, I'm not going to believe this claim of yours.
Really? This wasn't you?


Oh wait, I see the problem. I've been saying "guards" "militia" and "soldiers" all to refer to "people trained to use weapons and armor" and you were specifically talking about soldiers, so every town having guards is fine, but they can't have soldiers.

Silly me. So you are perfectly fine with armed and armored halfling guards in a village to rally to the defense of their neighbors, they just can't be armed and armored halfling soldiers. Do I have it right?
Yes. Silly you. I'm not responsible for you falsely equating town guards, of which there are few and are less trained than soldiers, to soldiers. I don't make that sort of false equivalence. If I say soldiers, I mean actual soldiers. If I'm talking about guards, I say guards. If I say militia, then I'm talking about commoners trained with some easy to use weapons(simple in 5e terms), which is what a militia was.
A thing by the way, you are once more reversing position on. As, during that discussion, you went out of your way to insist halflings had many crafts of many professions, and now you want to claim they don't.
Aaaaaaand another Strawman of my position. I have reversed nothing and still insist that Halflings know many crafts. I have not said and never have said that they are purveyors of fine goods. I said that they can knit, make shoes, blacksmith, etc. so that the village can survive with their small numbers.
Oh, let me guess, it is the qualifier "finely made" that is making all the difference, isn't it?
It's amazing how different descriptors make things different. After all, that Louis Vuitton bag is the same as the one you got from Walmart.
 

False Dichotomies are false. There are average goods, fair quality goods, good quality goods. Things don't have to be fine or poor.
For the record I gave an example of "small goods" that are finely crafted/intricate designs as an example of trade goods that halflings are known for in my campaign setting.
 

Adventurers can deviate from racial lore.They don't have too.
The issue is when you go so hard on a single trope that you don't inspire people to break the mold over just choosing another race.
Inspiration to break a mold isn't given in ANY race. All of them are typecast. Breaking the mold is up to the player and the player's vision. So no, you don't have to deviate from the racial lore. Doing so, though, is about as hard as lifting a ball point pen
The issue is halflings are more or less typecasted and the stereotypes of the uncommon races are more popular now. If someone wants to make a small murderous fighter, they'll go Goblin if the DM allows.
I strongly disagree with this. Playing against type is one of the most common tropes out there.

Edit: In my tired state I went to the post before the one you last quoted of mine, but this response applies to the new post as well where you said, "That's likely why you don't see the issue. Bcause you never analyze the lore and speculated how other might see it."

It doesn't matter how they see it. Playing against type is a very, very common thing and you can't do that unless you see the type in the first place.
 

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