Why do we need thieves??

[pawsplay]

Classic thieves aren't just burglars, but also waylayers. There are occasions where D&D has statted gangs of robbers as thieves rather than 1 HD monsters.

 

[Mannahnin]

Conan’s strengths lie in his left bicep and in his right bicep. And chest and stomach. And legs. OK, it was all over. Maybe not his hair though. He was a strength thief. As opposed to a agility thief.

Also his speed, his agility, his indomitable will, his quick thinking and quick reactions, his cunning, his preternatural senses, his charisma, his instant good judgement about when to run or to fight...

He's a Hero. Or likely Superhero, in Chainmail/OD&D/AD&D terms (8th level Fighter).

 

[Reynard]

Also his speed, his agility, his indomitable will, his quick thinking and quick reactions, his cunning, his preternatural senses, his charisma, his instant good judgement about when to run or to fight...

He's a Hero. Or likely Superhero, in Chainmail/OD&D/AD&D terms (8th level Fighter).

He is a Mary Sue for everything Howard aspired/wished to be.

 

[Mannahnin]

He is a Mary Sue for everything Howard aspired/wished to be.

Eh. I don't think all Heroes should be dismissed as Mary Sues or Gary Stus. Mary Sue was specifically an author self-insert by fan fiction into an existing IP/universe, making herself the center of the plot, better than and admired by all around her, and able to resolve any problem with minimal effort, right?

Heroes, especially ones which act as solo adventurers, normally tend to be all-round skillful and superlative. This doesn't mean they don't have ANY weaknesses. Conan's got a couple, though his strengths get him out of the pickles his weaknesses get him into. His lack of tact/tendency to offend people, his curiosity and desire to help people, his susceptibility to a challenge, and his anger/frustration at being tricked or mocked, all got him in trouble.

No argument that Howard wished he could be like Conan, though, and personality-wise, was no doubt similar. What Howard probably wished he could have been in a world without his constraints and limitations.

 

[Reynard]

Eh. I don't think all Heroes should be dismissed as Mary Sues or Gary Stus. Mary Sue was specifically an author self-insert by fan fiction into an existing IP/universe, making herself the center of the plot, better than and admired by all around her, and able to resolve any problem with minimal effort, right?

Heroes, especially ones which act as solo adventurers, normally tend to be all-round skillful and superlative. This doesn't mean they don't have ANY weaknesses. Conan's got a couple, though his strengths get him out of the pickles his weaknesses get him into. His lack of tact/tendency to offend people, his curiosity and desire to help people, his susceptibility to a challenge, and his anger/frustration at being tricked or mocked, all got him in trouble.

No argument that Howard wished he could be like Conan, though, and personality-wise, was no doubt similar. What Howard probably wished he could have been in a world without his constraints and limitations.

Of course not all heroes are, but Conan certainly is. If you read Howard's letters, it isn't just obvious, it is a little weird.

 

[Mannahnin]

Of course not all heroes are, but Conan certainly is. If you read Howard's letters, it isn't just obvious, it is a little weird.

He's what Howard wished he could be, but he's not a self-insert.

 

[Reynard]

He's what Howard wished he could be, but he's not a self-insert.

Interesting. What makes that distinction for you?

 

[Bill Zebub]

Normally only arguments about metagaming can completely derail a thread this quickly.

 

[Mannahnin]

Interesting. What makes that distinction for you?

Conan isn't Howard. It seems pretty straightforward. He doesn't look like Howard or talk like Howard, he doesn't have Howard's name or a background or a history similar to Howard's. A lot of authors have written heroes whom the authors wishes they could be, or be like, but that's not the same as the character being themselves in a wish-fulfillment scenario (which is, e.g., a common issue in amateur LitRPG, right?)

Mary-Sue was a parody of literal author self-inserts. I understand that the definition and usage has broadened, but when it's applied in a way which seems to cover any broadly-competent hero (not protagonist; hero), I think it loses utility.

 

[Li Shenron]

So with a great deal of systems, I see a dedicated profession of thief. I would argue the need on the basis that, thieves do not have special powers, just skills. You could play a warrior, and rob people, take advantage of someone you caught off guard, a servant could walk away with important documents, or a locksmith could open locks.

Many systems are based on character classes or archetypes. The "sneaky trickster" who gets what they want by subterfuge is a favourite archetype so it often gets included. "Thief" is always a debatable name for the archetype, as the person doesn't have to be interested or willing to steal, in fact D&D moved away from Thief to Rogue already 25 years ago, even though the name crept back into a subclass.

Then, of course a system doesn't have to be based on classes. It can be based on individual abilities or "skills". In which case, you also do not a "warrior".