Why do we need thieves??

[A_Carrington]

Literally the worst take on this I can think of. No where near the mark.

Asserted without reasoning, dismissed without reasoning.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I did oversee that, but it doesnt change anything about my answer. Class-based games - like D&D - have the thiev as class because the distinction of character mechanics is done via classes. Skill-based games don't have this "problem" because they don't have any classes at all. It is a non-problem. I don't understand what gets discussed here. Class based games have classes, skill based games don't.

At the very least you need to acknowledge there are games that land well in a muddy ground in between. Any class based game with a skill system may well have no useful niche for thieves since most of what defines a thief is just specific skills. Its notable that they had to carve out spots for the D&D rogue across time to keep it at all distinct from any of the high-skill-point classes once those appeared.

 

[Baron Opal II]

At the very least you need to acknowledge there are games that land well in a muddy ground in between. Any class based game with a skill system may well have no useful niche for thieves since most of what defines a thief is just specific skills. Its notable that they had to carve out spots for the D&D rogue across time to keep it at all distinct from any of the high-skill-point classes once those appeared.

"Yes, but..."

When writing my bespoke version it was my intent at first to have Rogues be the "Everyman" class. They were a jack-of-trades class; survival was not through skill of arms, a Patron's favor, or knowledge of the arcane, but through grit and luck. The knew things, had contacts, and if you wanted a cat burglar or an assassin you picked Rogue and chose accordingly.

That class was awful. It was "muddy", not having a central theme or concept to lean into unlike the other classes. After thinking about it, I rewrote it to have the core of "urban stealth". The class doesn't have to be focused on crime necessarily. You could lean into the social aspects of it, or more into it's knowledge of mechanisms. But having that theme made it, and any other class, into a package of themed abilities that uses a skill system to interact with the environment.

That's also a statement that each class should have equivalent access to skills, and not lean on that aspect when you have a class driven system.

 

[pemerton]

The idea that there is some fundamental in-fiction difference between a thief and a warrior doesn't seem very plausible to me.

It's a conceit of PC building in the context of fantasy (or even semi-historical) RPGing: compared to the warrior build, the thief build trades away robustness of damage and defence, in exchange for increased mobility and infiltration capabilities.

In a RPG that makes robustness mostly a product of gear rather than personal capabilities - eg Classic Traveller - than the context for the trade-off goes away, and hence so does the distinction. Sure, an "Other" character in Classic Traveller will likely have Streetwise and Forgery but not Tactics and Leader, and vice versa for an "Army" character - but either can have good physical stats and good weapon skills.