Why Do You Hate An RPG System?

[Umbran]

I HATE the D&D Nazis ...

Mod Note:
And I hate when people make an analogy between the deaths of millions of innocent people and petty squabbles over how to pretend to be elves.

There is no call for that comparison. Don't make it ever again, please and thank you.

And, by the way, don't use f-bombs, if you don't want a finger waggled at you about language use.

 

[Umbran]

Fixed, no; but comparative, yes. Cam Banks, the designer of Marvel Heroic, said a few times that he basically used the 5-step ladder Marvel used to determine who was stronger than who in their comics. I forget what the original Marvel labels were, but in Marvel Heroic they became Weak d4, Human d6, Enhanced d8, Superhuman d10, and Godlike d12.

The original FASERIP labels were Feeble, Poor, Typical, Good, Excellent, Remarkable, Incredible, Amazing, Monstrous, Unearthly. The OHotMU and this system were largely in synch.

The charts had Shift X, Y, and Z for when you had one of the named ranks, and the mechanics had you shifting above them.

There was also Class 1000, Class 3000, Class 5000 for cosmic things, and Beyond for the Beyonder.

 

[overgeeked]

The original FASERIP labels were Feeble, Poor, Typical, Good, Excellent, Remarkable, Incredible, Amazing, Monstrous, Unearthly. The OHotMU and this system were largely in synch.

The charts had Shift X, Y, and Z for when you had one of the named ranks, and the mechanics had you shifting above them.

There was also Class 1000, Class 3000, Class 5000 for cosmic things, and Beyond for the Beyonder.

That was a cool game. Apparently I should have been more specific. Cam was working with Marvel Comics editors and writers and used the 5-step ladder that Marvel Comics editors and writers use to delineate their characters in house.

 

[TreChriron]

I tried to read the thread, but there was so much bickering (and side-treks from the original post) that I got lost.

IMHO this thread started with a terrible premise. Why do you care? I think we all have enough experience to know;

1. If you tell someone you hate "their" system - they are going to rise to the challenge and refute you. With much vitriol.
2. Telling people you hate a system is mean. It hurts people's feelings. This is a clear violation of Wil Wheaton's Rule. You don't want to be a violator of Wil Wheaton's Rule do you?!?!
3. If someone hates "your" system, that does not mean;
   1. It will immediately or eventually lose all market share and be lost to time.
   2. Fans will immediately or eventually stop playing it.
   3. Players of the game will immediately or eventually be impossible to find.
4. If crapping on systems you don't like brings you any joy - you should reassess your priorities.
5. If you believe that everyone should be playing "your" game to the exclusion of all the other "bad-wrong-fun" games, you might consider turning the megalomania dial down a few notches. I also recommend turning up the personal-joy dial a few to compensate.

If you find yourself wandering the forum-lands of the wild InterTubes, and you see people crapping on "your" system - might I a make a suggestion? Ignore them. If you really want to espouse the glory of "your" system I would suggest talking about why you like it (not comparing it to others) and what brings you joy when you're playing it. This is what hobbies are for. Fun and Joy.

There are almost as many RPGs as there are players. Almost. So you can find whatever game you like. Your enthusiasm will bring others to your table. Fun and Joy are key to recruiting people and "selling" games. I recommend we stop talking about what we hate and instead spread a little fun and joy around.

Just my two cents...

 

[Reynard]

I tried to read the thread, but there was so much bickering (and side-treks from the original post) that I got lost.

IMHO this thread started with a terrible premise. Why do you care? I think we all have enough experience to know;

1. If you tell someone you hate "their" system - they are going to rise to the challenge and refute you. With much vitriol.
2. Telling people you hate a system is mean. It hurts people's feelings. This is a clear violation of Wil Wheaton's Rule. You don't want to be a violator of Wil Wheaton's Rule do you?!?!
3. If someone hates "your" system, that does not mean;
   1. It will immediately or eventually lose all market share and be lost to time.
   2. Fans will immediately or eventually stop playing it.
   3. Players of the game will immediately or eventually be impossible to find.
4. If crapping on systems you don't like brings you any joy - you should reassess your priorities.
5. If you believe that everyone should be playing "your" game to the exclusion of all the other "bad-wrong-fun" games, you might consider turning the megalomania dial down a few notches. I also recommend turning up the personal-joy dial a few to compensate.

If you find yourself wandering the forum-lands of the wild InterTubes, and you see people crapping on "your" system - might I a make a suggestion? Ignore them. If you really want to espouse the glory of "your" system I would suggest talking about why you like it (not comparing it to others) and what brings you joy when you're playing it. This is what hobbies are for. Fun and Joy.

There are almost as many RPGs as there are players. Almost. So you can find whatever game you like. Your enthusiasm will bring others to your table. Fun and Joy are key to recruiting people and "selling" games. I recommend we stop talking about what we hate and instead spread a little fun and joy around.

Just my two cents...

Emphasis mine.

I think you misinterpreted the premise, then. I wasn't asking "Why do you hate MY favorite system?" I was asking why someone would bring the level of dislike up to HATE when discussing systems at all. And, by and large, this thread was quite instructive on the matter. Not in spite of all the angry tangents, by the way, but exactly because of them.

 

[jdrakeh]

I don't HATE any systems these days. It takes up too much energy. Many years ago I could do that. These days, I'm old and slow. I prefer to focus my energy on the things I like. I do still have games/systems that I prefer not to play for various reasons. For example, I feel that all Savage Worlds games are very same-y, perhaps even more so than things like GURPS and Hero, because there are considerably fewer mechanical options. But I don't HATE it.

That said, one of the big things that got me going back in the day were huge mechanical shifts between editions of a game that I'd played for years (so reeeeeeeeally not fond of the AD&D 2e to D&D 3e shift). Feeling like I had to learn an entirely new system to play a game that I already loved was... well, it wasn't ideal for me. I eventually came around, but this was due more to 3rd party products rather than the 3e core game (Green Ronin in particular published some outstanding OGL stuff).

 

[Thomas Shey]

Emphasis mine.

I think you misinterpreted the premise, then. I wasn't asking "Why do you hate MY favorite system?" I was asking why someone would bring the level of dislike up to HATE when discussing systems at all. And, by and large, this thread was quite instructive on the matter. Not in spite of all the angry tangents, by the way, but exactly because of them.

I'm not actually sure I'd say I outright hate any game system, though some of them I certainly disdain, and there are others that are absolutely not what I'm looking for (the distinction is because I'm entirely capable of recognizing a system serves its intended audience well, but that audience is absolutely not me. As distinguished with game systems that seem to just be be or have signficant pieces that are generally bad ideas, or misdesigned for their apparent intended purpose).

 

[TreChriron]

Emphasis mine.

I think you misinterpreted the premise, then. I wasn't asking "Why do you hate MY favorite system?" I was asking why someone would bring the level of dislike up to HATE when discussing systems at all. And, by and large, this thread was quite instructive on the matter. Not in spite of all the angry tangents, by the way, but exactly because of them.

I get that. What I'm saying is that person A comes along and says "here's why I hate system A." (Answering your question) Person B reads that and it happens that system A is person's B favorite system. It's inevitable that person B is going to rise to defend system A.

My premise is that asking why someone would rise to that occasion is only going to show why it's a pointless question. People have opinions. Love and hate of something is largely subjective. It's just a roundabout way of igniting a conflict about who hates vs. who doesn't any particular system.

Did we learn WHY people hate systems in this thread? If so, could you summarize what we learned? I just saw a lot of "I hate FATE" and a bunch of "here's why you're wrong hating FATE" posts. Were we supposed to be learning a lesson from the conflict?

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think there's some legitimacy to the question he's actually asking, which is "Why do you respond strongly enough to a game system for it to reach the level of hate?"

I think there can be reasons that happens (usually really bad experiences which have as much to do with the dynamics of the group involved as the system per se), but some of it also comes down to questions of why people react as strongly as they do to, well, a lot of things.

 

[Reynard]

I get that. What I'm saying is that person A comes along and says "here's why I hate system A." (Answering your question) Person B reads that and it happens that system A is person's B favorite system. It's inevitable that person B is going to rise to defend system A.

My premise is that asking why someone would rise to that occasion is only going to show why it's a pointless question. People have opinions. Love and hate of something is largely subjective. It's just a roundabout way of igniting a conflict about who hates vs. who doesn't any particular system.

Did we learn WHY people hate systems in this thread? If so, could you summarize what we learned? I just saw a lot of "I hate FATE" and a bunch of "here's why you're wrong hating FATE" posts. Were we supposed to be learning a lesson from the conflict?

I am not going to accept responsibility for people that can't engage in a reasonable discussion -- and that has been more and more common here for a while now. The responses to this very thread inspired me to give myself a few months long break from here, in fact, just because it felt like it was harder and harder to enjoy vigorous but reasonable debate (along with just fun discussions about gaming and D&D). What I have realized recently is that it isn't just ENWorld, it is every space online. People are very quick to go on the attack, or get defensive, or just plain be rude.

I want to be able to talk about gaming and life as it relates to gaming, and so I will continue to try and engage my fellow community members in discussion. I will do my best not to be a jerk about it, too (I know I can sometimes get heated or feel put upon, just like everyone else). But I am not going to feel guilty for proposing a topic that someone else decides to use as a cudgel.