D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[Hexmage-EN]

I make it a personal goal to have campaigns go to as high level as they can. My previous campaign ended at 20th-level with the party fighting multiple archdevils, demon lords, aspects of archomentals, a kraken, and hordes of lower-CR monsters.

Highlights included the wizard sabotaging a whale-like demon carrying demon hordes across the Styx in its mouth by polymorphing it into a rat that drowned (forcing all the demons out of the creature and into the Stygian waters at the same time), the Oath of Vengeance paladin mounting a nightmare and using Spirit Guardians to wipe-out an army of skeletons just by flying over them before smiting the two goristros at the far end, a strike force of boneclaws and demons appearing on the party's ship only to be flung off via Reverse Gravity as the ship continued on, a battle with aspects of Imix, Cryonax, and Moloch, a battle with the tyrannosaurus rex-like demon Azuvidexus that nearly saw the ranger's animal companion eaten alive, a sequence in which the party used both fly and haste to get to a kraken hurling lightning bolts from hundreds of feet away so they could fight it and two wastriliths, etc.

They also got struck by a Meteor Swarm from Mephistopheles, but they plane shifted out immediately after that.

So, personally I find the highest levels of play very satisfying to DM and plan for. However, I've also always been very interested in the various demon lords and archdevils and archomentals and such and want to make extensive use of them. I did find that the PCs (especially the Oath of Vengeance paladin) were able to take on almost anything I threw at them or heal from taking a beating, so I stopped pulling my punches in favor of letting them run away if they needed to (which they only needed to do in two instances; once after the Meteor Swarm I mentioned, and once after defeating the aspects of Cryonax, Imix, and Moloch when several hostile pit fiends appeared).

EDIT: I also incorporated parts of Geryon's fortress from 2E's A Paladin in Hell towards the end.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Not sure if I'm following your "by that logic" logic.

Stopping at level 10 and just granting a few hps and so forth, like you said in the post I quoted. It's "supporting the concept" in technicality, without supporting the concept in a way that would be satisfactory to players who want to play past level 10.

Kind of like how there are still players who want epic level rules beyond what epic boons provide (there have been quite a few epic rules additions released on DMs Guild).

 

[Aldarc]

Stopping at level 10 and just granting a few hps and so forth, like you said in the post I quoted. It's "supporting the concept" in technicality, without supporting the concept in a way that would be satisfactory to players who want to play past level 10.

Kind of like how there are still players who want epic level rules beyond what epic boons provide (there have been quite a few epic rules additions released on DMs Guild).

Still not following, but it's been a long day. I'll just trust you and move on.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Because it’s fun, and enough people use them that they’d get hell if they got rid of them.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

I'll also echo the sentiment that DMs running high level play probably make extensive use of home brew. I know I made a lot of unique monsters for the end of my previous campaign and found most of the published high CR monsters from official sources underpowered compared to the party.

 

[FrogReaver]

Stopping at level 10 and just granting a few hps and so forth, like you said in the post I quoted. It's "supporting the concept" in technicality, without supporting the concept in a way that would be satisfactory to players who want to play past level 10.

Kind of like how there are still players who want epic level rules beyond what epic boons provide (there have been quite a few epic rules additions released on DMs Guild).

One could just hand out the levels above 10 as epic boons only.

 

[Maxperson]

I think the implication is that if you make it to over 15 or so, might as well keep going up to 20. Stopping at 17-19 (especially 19) is sort of like leaving one bite of your ice cream cone. The deed is already done.

I think when they put out their article, they said that people were just making their characters at level 20 to plan them out. In any case, that's not my experience. My experience is that the long term campaigns have an arc and end in the 16-20 range. They don't get seem to drawn out just because. I will say that they don't seem to end at 19 so much, for the reason you state above. 16-18 happens fairly regularly, though.

 

[Maxperson]

That, and 0% doesn’t necessarily mean 0 groups. It just means a statistically insignificant portion of groups.

But that doesn't jive with what I said. If a lot of groups get there at least sometimes, then you are not going to be statistically insignificant, especially considering a lot of groups get there a lot of the time.

 

[Charlaquin]

But that doesn't jive with what I said. If a lot of groups get there at least sometimes, then you are not going to be statistically insignificant, especially considering a lot of groups get there a lot of the time.

“A lot” can absolutely be a statistically insignificant portion, if there are sufficiently more than “a lot” that don’t fall into that subset.

 

[ccs]

That's the important point. In my experience, I feel that high level in the 3rd and 5th edition Player's Handbook don't comfortably fit into the scope of the book.

Well it's a good thing the developers don't share your opinion or experience.
Just because YOU find the material of no use doesn't mean that the rest of us don't. Personally I'd rather have it included in the PHB than tucked away in another book. Makes it easier for me to access when I want it.
Especially the spells.
Doesn't cost me more $ & eat up more space on my book shelf like it would either if tucked away in yet another book.