D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[Stalker0]

Are you saying player characters would be different levels, or are you saying the whole party would get feats instead of advancing to the next level?

The latter

 

[jgsugden]

There are a lot of tools out there that most people do not understand how to use, but if they did learn how to use them well, they could do wonderful things with them. There are a lot of those in D&D.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I don't see any benefit in removing high level play from the core book,even if it doesn't get used as much.

Fully agree here.

I mean, nobody should play gnomes, but they are still in.

This is where you lost me (unless you mean halflings, in which case I would agree with you).

 

[GreyLord]

That's something of an oversimplification. The Dungeon Master's Guide for AD&D 2E said (chapter three):



While most people focus on the first sentence (and overlook the "theoretically" part of it), the first part of the second sentence is what I find more germane. The DMG only takes characters up to 20th level, having no experience point listings for gaining any levels beyond that.

Of course, various 2E books would rush to make up the difference, such as Forgotten Realms Adventures, PHBR4 The Complete Wizard's Handbook, Dragon Kings, and perhaps most famously, Netheril: Empire of Magic.

But eventually, things stabilized. Dungeon Master Option: High-Level Campaigns stated declaratively (p. 179):



Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.

Which was promptly undone by Forgotten Realms which gave advancement up to at least level 40....

Allowing spellcasting levels up to at least that level as well.

OF course, FR used different spellcaster levels and tables than HLC did also. Things were notoriously inconsistent in those late days of TSR...

However, even with High Level Campaigns, if we actually look a LITTLE PAST where you stopped your quote...it doesn't mean advancement necessarily STOPS at 30th level...it takes on another dimension which is discussed in the next section.

It states...

Beyond 30th Level All character advancement stops at 30th level, which representsthe pinnacle of mortal achievement. At this level, even a wizard has more hit points thanfive normal men and characters of any class have powers greater than the avatars thatdeities use to conduct business in the mortal world. Once a character has gotten this far,there is nowhere else to go. Or is there?

Divine Ascension

With the DM’s approval, a character can abandon his or her profession and follow adifferent path to power. Divine ascension requires a great deal of attention and creativityfrom both DM and player. Only the barest guidelines are given here, because eachcharacter and campaign are unique

And with that, it melds into the FR advancement schemes if one wishes to use them which go into 40th level and higher...

The reasoning it gives for 30th level being the highest a mortal can obtain is because after that they become immortals at higher levels! IT doesn't STOP the game there if the party wishes to...theyjust move onto divine ascension (at a lower level than other games have put it...if one wishes to use the OPTIONS of HLC in the first place...because unlike the core rules...it is specifically LISTED AS OPTIONS).

 

[GreyLord]

I can imagine three separate Players Handbooks.

One for level 0. Kidstuff and teenstuff.

One for tiers 1-4, 5-8, and 9-12. The bulk of the D&D experience. (But with advice for a low magic campaign stopping at 8.)

And one for tiers 13-16, 17-20, and 21-24. Superheroes.

Not exactly that, but it has been done similarly already in 5e.

Beginners - Starter Set - premade characters levels 1-5 only

New Players after that - Essentials Kit - make your own characters, levels 1-6

Players after those boxes - PHB - make your own characters levels 1-20.

 

[Alzrius]

The reasoning it gives for 30th level being the highest a mortal can obtain is because after that they become immortals at higher levels! IT doesn't STOP the game there if the party wishes to...theyjust move onto divine ascension (at a lower level than other games have put it...if one wishes to use the OPTIONS of HLC in the first place...because unlike the core rules...it is specifically LISTED AS OPTIONS).

I feel like we're halfway to a Simpsons routine at this point ("the frogurt is also cursed") but you didn't go far enough down the page. The book doesn't present divine ascension as an alternative avenue of play - though the quest to ascend can still be a source of adventures (though not advancement) - so much as it does an end to a given character's story (at least as a PC). To quote from the book:

When all of that is accomplished, the character becomes a demigod and companion to the sponsor. The character becomes an NPC under the DM's control.

Some players may be upset that they have worked so hard to improve their characters only to lose control of them to the DM. Remind them of their contributions to the campaign world--new characters can worship their "retired" heroes/demigods--and invite them to help construct the new powers' portfolios. AD&D is a game of heroes, not gods.

 

[d24454_modern]

I feel like we're halfway to a Simpsons routine at this point ("the frogurt is also cursed") but you didn't go far enough down the page. The book doesn't present divine ascension as an alternative avenue of play - though the quest to ascend can still be a source of adventures (though not advancement) - so much as it does an end to a given character's story (at least as a PC). To quote from the book:

Looks like Asmodeus and the other Archdevils are going to have to go unfought then.

 

[Alzrius]

Looks like Asmodeus and the other Archdevils are going to have to go unfought then.

In terms of AD&D 2nd Edition, that was the reality of it. As far as stats went, the Lords of the Nine only had avatars presented for them (in Dragon #223), and only for the first eight. Asmodeus had no stats of any kind, avatar or otherwise, though this made a bit more sense with what was presented about him in the Guide to Hell (affiliate link).

 

[d24454_modern]

In terms of AD&D 2nd Edition, that was the reality of it. As far as stats went, the Lords of the Nine only had avatars presented for them (in Dragon #223), and only for the first eight. Asmodeus had no stats of any kind, avatar or otherwise, though this made a bit more sense with what was presented about him in the Guide to Hell (affiliate link).

That’s something that always disappointed me about later editions of DnD and Pathfinder.

It feels like they’re trying railroad us out of having adventures and lasting changes on the setting.

These stats exist because someone wants to use it.

With how many people that like to turn fictional characters like Kratos and Sephiroth into playable characters, it’s surprising that genuine Epic Rules don’t exist already.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the epic boons, it helps me consider it.

The main difficulty is, the class stops advancing. So while the "character level" might be 22, the class is stuck at 20.

Maybe it is better to characterize epic as a kind of prestige class. For example. Wizard 20 / Immortal 2. This would be kinda 4e-ish like epic destinies. But 4e helped focus character concepts a bit more helpfully.

Also, the boons are mixed bag. Some are potent, some are terrible.

Immortality should be given for free, by merit of becoming epic at level 21.

I guess the class can kinda improve, such as using a boon to give Wizard features an extra spellcasting. I am unsure how I feel about this.

Actually, with the epic boon system neither your class nor your character level advance. You instead advance through feats, boons, and ability scores. We’ve played with a few time and i personally enjoyed it more than levels. In fact, we plan to do a campaign it starts at level 20 we liked it so much.