Why does DnD make force you to have magic to get better?

swrushing said:
The Midnight core book has a section discussing iirc handling scenarios and monsters and evaluations in a world without the usual copious magic items. i would recommend reading it.

My favorite campaign setting ever, i'm running it now, and implementing a lot of the rules i like. You're right, the rules cover a lot of running low-magic campaigns, and in addition, Midnight addresses many "issues" i have, as well as coherently tying together every race, class, religion and geographic setting into a cohesive, dynamic world. Top notch stuff, if you don't mind lack of teleport, dimension door, and +5 greatswords...
 

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Majere said:
Im with Thanne, if you dont like high magic, D&D isnt the setting you want. D&D is a high magic setting, if you prefer low magic, perhaps try a d20 system which better reflects your campeign Idea ?
Perhaps that's exactly what they are trying to develop.

J
 


Piratecat said:
For low magic games, I'm in love with Badaxe Games's Grim Tales.

Piratecat, i'm with you, man. When i first got that book i thought it was just d20 modern rehashed, but a closer look revealed the true ingenuity. Right now i'm using it spliced with d20 Cthulhu and classic Cthulhu rules for a mishmash game of high adventure/horror. The rules blend really well, and i'm going to eventually use some of the rules for my Midnight campaign.

And i love Dnd. Always have. I might have some quibbles with the current system, but it's still my favorite of the DnD systems through the incarnations of the game.
 
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Allow me to jump on the Grim Tales bandwagon - Bad Axe Rocks!

... Though there are other options if you want to do it youself, or if you'd really like to use the PHB classes. I'd recommend... well, what I recommended on the thread I linked to the last time I poseted on this thread.

There's a lot of discussion on class-based defense bonuses over there, and I advised using the design parameters from U_K's Challenge Rating system (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66470) as guidelines for ballancing whatever non-standard defense and equipment choices you make with core classes and challenge ratings. I sum up my opinion on the utility of U_K's system for this purpose here: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1861054&postcount=17

-George
 

I gave my players the Combat Expertise feat as an additional feat at first level, in exchange for also taking one of the character flaws from Unearthed Arcana. The idea is they take a negative feat in exchange for the additional feat. (Requirements for the feat are waived).

The idea of being able to actually use your combat ability to defend yourself is sadly scarce in D&D. This is a small way of trying to change that.
 

D&D doesn't force you to have magic to get better, but magic is a convenient way to handwave improvements to a D&D character. Part of the fun in D&D is improving your character, right?

After all, what is the difference between a fighter wearing a suit of +5 heavy fortification full plate and a fighter with 100,000 gp less gear wearing a suit of masterwork full plate armor that he has trained with so intensively that he gets a +5 bonus to AC and can ignore all critical hits while wearing it? Most of the time, there really isn't any (yeah, yeah, dispel magic, anti-magic field, sale value, ease of replacement, whatever - don't nitpick when I'm making a point).

If you don't like the idea of magic but want to retain its effects, call it whatever you want.
 

Capping the game at 12th level

You're welcome Narfellus,

Since you're comfortable at capping your campaign around 12th level, you can start by looking at what 12th level is by looking at the maximums:

1. 88,000 gp starting wealth (the DMG suggests that no single item s/b more than 1/4th the value of the character level starting wealth so that comes out to 22,000 gp). We know that 22k gp buys:
a.+3 weapon (maybe a material component thrown in)
b. +4 armor or shield with some custom stuff on it
c. +3 amulet of natural armor or ring of protection +3
d. +4 ability enhancing item
e. +4 cloak of resistance, and so on...

In my campaign, I capped the player characters at 1/4th the starting wealth of any single item they can buy, so if they go into a mageware shop, they will find only items of 22,000 gp or less for sale. This helps me keep balance, and I would never give out more treasure than what they characters can buy (I wouldn't throw in a +5 sword at a 12th level adventure).

2. At 12th level, you know that 6th level spells for the core spell-casting classes are the max, so you got your disintegrate, anti-magic, and chain lightning as your heavy hitters. To make encounters more balance, but if you want to throw in monsters that are designed for higher levels, cap out their spell-like abilities at 12th level if normally higher, deny the monsters access to their 7th level and higher spells and spell-like abilities, but to keep the same "punch", you can opt to keep the same hit dice. This makes combat a little nasty, but it doesn't guarantee a TPK everytime. For example on the balor example being thrown around, he's a baddie at CR 20. I would take away his +1 vorpal longsword (since it's a +6 weapon), and reduce it to a +3 weapon of some type. Throw away the spell-like abilities that are higher than 6th level spells (goodbye fire storm, implosion, power word stun, insanity, and greater teleport), and reduce his caster level from 20th to 12th. If you keep his HD the same, he'll still be a nasty opponent even for a party of 12th level characters and you haven't had to do a lot of work in making him a more appropriate encounter.

By doing this, you've managed the height maximums of your campaign setting ahead of time (if you envision the balor as the ultimate monster for the party to defeat--if you choose another monster like an ancient great red wyrm, it'll take more effort to work down if their original CR is WAY higher than 12).

I don't own any of the low-magic campaign settings, but I see in the threads that some of the game companies have approached that design and some work. That's great if they've balanced mechanics and a believable setting.

A good DM tip is that if some of you want to run higher-level campaigns, but it's too much of a headache to keep track of, just work out these details:

1. Religiously follow the wealth table on page 135 and set a maximum value of any character buying or making an item at 1/4 the starting value, so if you have a party of 12th level characters, then the maximum value of any single item they own will be no more than 22k gp. This takes out a lot of headaches, because then it can serve as a guide for treasure to give out in adventures and so on by never giving out anything more in value for the characters to have.

2. Know your spells. If you want to design an adventure for a higher level party (say 15th level), think of the maximums as I've described above. 15th level is 8th level spell casting for clerics and wizards, what can they do? Magic items are just going to emolate a good deal of spells and if you keep the cap, you don't have to worry about characters getting crazy when they purchase magic items or make their own.

3. Know your outside d20 sources. If you're the type that easily allows anything in the PH and DMG, but nothing else, that's usually enough, but outside d20 stuff may have "game-breakers" in the form of magic items, spells, character classes, prestige classes, etc. Some of this stuff will have inherent flaws in their design in that if you allow it, you only discover to your horror that some player has discovered the amazing edge it gives him in every situation. Not very fun to ban it after game play. I'm a big fan of d20 stuff, but I know that some stuff may not be appropriate for my campaign, and I have to review it all ahead of time before I can allow players to pick the stuff up.
 

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