D&D 4E Why does everyone feel threatened by 4E?

[Branduil]

Because 4e has threatening reach.

 

[Badkarmaboy]

4e is complicated, unrealistic and inflexible. Those aren't just side-effects of the core rules. They're design goals.

I don't mean "elves and magic" unrealistic. I mean "square fireballs and normal crossbows on full auto" unrealistic. The rules explicitly state that, given the choice between game balance and internal logic, screw logic.

This means that, to adhere to the spirit of the game, all adjudications require hours of rules-checking, cross-referencing, spreadsheet design, discussion, playtesting and a trip to customer service. You can no longer use common sense to resolve problems because the rules actively discourage the use of common sense.

It's like trying to create an immersive, interactive environment with exciting battles, fantastic locations, intricate storylines, political intrigue and fast-paced action using chess as your core mechanic. It's just not set up to handle it.

And, five years from now, this is the edition that 95% of all players will be using. Most college students will only know other editions from rumor and stories.

For the next ten years nearly all new games (and new editions of old ones) are going to follow this trend.

Gaming is a social activity. Gamers form communities. And it's sad to watch my community wither and die. Again.

These things happen. I just wish it didn't have to happen like this.

My two cents- I find this rule set very flexible in dealing with problems. Much more so that 3e, though not as much as AD&D.

Again, that's just my experience.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

why is this posted in the rules forum?

qft

 

[SableWyvern]

This means that, to adhere to the spirit of the game, all adjudications require hours of rules-checking, cross-referencing, spreadsheet design, discussion, playtesting and a trip to customer service. You can no longer use common sense to resolve problems because the rules actively discourage the use of common sense..

Huh? Did you get the Moon Language edition or something? 'Cause my copy doesn't have those issues. As I posted in the current "Invisible Paladin" thread:

[You cannot] treat 4E as if it is a tightly written ruleset that allows you to take only the RAW and extropolate a consistent, obvious and sensible method of play. It seems clear to me that 4E is not written in a fashion condusive to this approach, and insisting on consistent, literal interprations is going to lead to one illogical, unintuitive and unexpected situation after another.

Read generously, for the most part it's an excellent system. Read strictly, it's a mess, and a mess is what you'll end up with.

Which, in short, is the exact opposite of the quote at the start of this post.

Edit: Or, actually, the quote at the start of this post may in fact be a case-in-point for the "Read strictly" portion of my stance. Stop caring what some random guy in customer service thinks, just make a common sense decision based on common sense instead of a thirty page, falisifiable hypothesis, and I'm guessing you'll find your game running a great deal smoother.

 

[BlackMoria]

"Why does everyone feel threatened by 4E?"

Everyone is a generalization. Threatened may not be the proper verbage.

From my view in the cheap seats, the anti-4e dissatisfication comes down to (pick your poison).

1) There was still a lot of potential and growth in 3.5 and 4e came too soon.

2) 4e was a bigger paradigm shift than a majority of people anticipated

3) No backwards compatibility, meaning people had libraries of 3.x material worth thousands of dollars which essentially has no use now if they go to 4e

4) Wobbly logic in the 4e design process. Square fireballs. Dragons getting cover to ranged attacks by standing behind runt kobolds. Far too many to mention.

5) The 'scorched earth' approach to nearly everything. Changes for the sake of changes. The wholesale slaughter of sacred cows and established tropes, in many cases for very little reason other than it they could do so. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

6) Going the way of World of Warcraft or other similar games (Shaky but there are those who still hold to that view that 4e is trying to make D&D more like WOW)

7) 4e is the illegimate offspring of the union of D&D and Magic the Gathering

8) The GSL (a problem in itself) and the fiasco of WOTC promising it for months and failing time and again in deliver it in a timely manner). This failure result in Paizo deciding to not go to 4e, a disappoint to many.

9) The clawback of Dragon and Dungeon mag from Paizo and going to an electronic format

10) The DDI - given WOTC less than stellar electronic successes in the past and the fact that one month after the premier release, large parts of the DDI is still a pipe dream.


Before the 4e crowd gets a hating on me, this are just my observations of what the anti-4e core complaints have been over the past months and don't represent my views.

I like 3.Xe. I like 4e. They are different games. 4e is not superior to 3.x, IMO....just different. I play both.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

4e is complicated, unrealistic and inflexible. Those aren't just side-effects of the core rules. They're design goals.

I don't mean "elves and magic" unrealistic. I mean "square fireballs and normal crossbows on full auto" unrealistic. The rules explicitly state that, given the choice between game balance and internal logic, screw logic.

This means that, to adhere to the spirit of the game, all adjudications require hours of rules-checking, cross-referencing, spreadsheet design, discussion, playtesting and a trip to customer service. You can no longer use common sense to resolve problems because the rules actively discourage the use of common sense.

It's like trying to create an immersive, interactive environment with exciting battles, fantastic locations, intricate storylines, political intrigue and fast-paced action using chess as your core mechanic. It's just not set up to handle it.

And, five years from now, this is the edition that 95% of all players will be using. Most college students will only know other editions from rumor and stories.

For the next ten years nearly all new games (and new editions of old ones) are going to follow this trend.

Gaming is a social activity. Gamers form communities. And it's sad to watch my community wither and die. Again.

These things happen. I just wish it didn't have to happen like this.

Luckily, I've been playing it regularly for the last month (run about 8 sessions so far) and thus know the error of your accusations....which by the way would also be applicable to 3rd edition. That said, I'm enjoying 4E and find it works fine for all my gaming needs, and is considerably simpler and easier to adjudicate or even house rule if I so desire than 3rd edition ever was. But I respect those who enjoy 3rd edition....I just burned out on the game after eight years, and quit playing it due to the persistent complexity problem of the system. 4E has brought back D&D to me big time, and in a much cleaner and more user-friendly package.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I can understand why many people wouldn't like 4e, and until I played it, I didn't care much for it either. But that's not the source of my confusion... what I am constantly hearing however is that so many people believe that this is the end for D&D, how 4e will ruin D&D, so forth. I know my 3.5 GM thinks it's the worst thing ever (of course he's never even cracked the spine of a 4e book), and there's seems to be this general "worry" from the 3.5 crowd that their hobby will be ruined. I can't understand why...

I could understand these concerns in regards to there being no more source material released for 3.5... only there are so many splat books in existence I can't imagine anyone has fully used all of them. Plus there are tons of non-WOTC source-books out there as well once the WOTC well runs dry. So I can't believe that is the reason for all the concern.

So what is it? Is there a concern that their player-base will go away? Is it just a knee-jerk reaction to all the 4e-fanboy-ism?

What do you guys think?

Welcome to ENworld!

Unfortunately this thread is highly likely to fall into edition-wars land, which we've been studiously avoiding for a while now.

Use the 4e forums to discuss things about 4e; use the 3e forums to discuss things about 3e, use the General forums to discuss, uh, general RPG stuff (and stuff that cuts across all editions).

Focus on the game rather than what "other people" might or might not like about something, for that way lies happiness and fulfilment.

Thanks!