ToV Other than "It's not made by WotC", what's the elevator pitch for Tales of the Valiant?

Tales of the Valiant (Black Flag)
ToV has a number of things going for it that make it ideal upgrade for anyone looking to move away from WotC but still wanting to continue to use their 5e stuff with minimal adjustments...it's the system for you.

The best parts of ToV

Lineage/heritage/backgrounds
- This was my biggest concern going into release, but it's quickly become my favorite part of the whole thing. It gives you SOOOOO much flexibility in how you build your characters. First Lineages are the "genetics" of a species, so it pulls out everything to do with culture, so you don't have "monolithic" species, which leads us to heritages. This gives you where the character is from, where they grew up, all the "cultural" aspects. You can have a Elf lineage with a Cloud heritage and have yourself a high elf, or you can do Elf and Cosmopolitan and do a half-elf (or the inverse and do Human with Cloud) or you could get crazy and do Dwarf-Cloud and do a half-dwarf/elf. There are just so many combinations that it's just your imagination that limits you.
Then there's the backgrounds, what you did for work before adventuring, each one gives you a choice of 3 different talents, typically one from each of the lists of Magic, Martial or Technical, sometimes there are other options like proficiencies in armor or weapons, so you can have that Bard who's proficient in a longsword or Wizard who has Light armor without multiclassing.

Luck - Luck is probably the most talked about/used subsystem of ToV and has been since it was in playtesting, because it's so good. It makes Inspiration so much worse of a mechanic that you really should just use it.

Subclass standardization - Subclasses being standardized is one of the best changes. Everyone gets their subclass at level 3 putting everyone on the same footing. 3/7/11/15 subclass features also allows for easy balancing across subclass features. That does not mean that classes are 4e level of "same-ness" because every class has their distinct class features at level 1. Subclasses that are on theme and (largely) stick to it, instead of being fairly generic, KP isn't afraid of making niche subclasses for a setting, but also making them usable enough outside of it

Classes (except Barbarian, Rogue, Monk) - Almost all classes (save the ones listed) have significant upgrades over 5e 2014, one of the biggest changes is evening out progression so you get something at every level up, whether it's a class feature or subclass feature, this makes it so there are no "dead levels" and makes progression feel good for everyone. Classes that got their subclasses at level 1/2 got the most "glow up". Every class gets a way to regain a core feature with a short rest.
Bard is an arcane castor from the word go now having full access to the Arcane spell list, it's new Bardic Performance feature makes the bard feel more like a musician as it's core feature, getting enhancements from subclasses
Cleric got the choice of Caster or Warrior from level 1 (before and similar to 2024's change).
Druid get's more uses over all from Wild Shape both immediately and in progression, it gains a Draw Power option as well as Beast Form. Beast form got changes and Draw Power gives you an expended spell slot back, subclasses give different options for Wild Shape as well.
Mechanist is a martial version of the Alchemist, while it gains magic through subclasses, it's mostly martial and unique relying on it's augments to buff itself or others.
Ranger, outside of Warlock getting the best changes out of all classes. Gone is Favored Enemy/Foe, Natural/Deft Explorer, in it's place is Explorer giving you a swimming or climb speed, advantage on tracking and moving through nonmagical difficult terrain normally. But the best change is eliminating Hunter's Mark for Mystic Mark turning it to a feature, even if slightly weaker at level one, it grows as you do, doesn't use spell slot to use.
Warlock has the most changes out of all the classes, becoming a half-caster AND pact caster. How does that work? Well by being a Wyrd caster, they have spell slots that they can cast any spell with (even pact spells). Your Pact Boon is moved to level 1 making it easier to know what type of Warlock your going to be from the get go. Pact Magic allows you to cast any of your Pact Spells (which you get with your subclass) without expending a spell slot. So the class becomes a true hybrid and less reliant on short rests, but also more versatility and flexibility

Spell Lists
Arcane, Primordial, Divine, Wyrd
Spell lists are now streamlined into 4 types of spells and giving classes access to the full spell list allows the spells to be more balanced and accessible through subclasses rather than having to make class specific lists.

Game Masters Guide - is probably one of, if not THE best GM's guide printed for all of 5e.

Supplemental books - Outside of the GM, KP has added more supplemental books in the 2 years ToV has been out than WotC has done in 11 years, from Campaign Builders series, to Monster Vault 2, GMG, Labyrinth Worldbook, The Old Mangreve, Book of Blades, upcoming Dungeon Delvers, Northlands setting and Players Guide 2 which will be adding ToV versions of the Witch, Theurge and the new Vanguard.

PDF's - EVERYTHING has PDF's available at an additional (but small) cost. They keep the extra cost down by allowing you to chose between a book or pdf but also bundle them, often adding one is an additional $10, where other companies either don't have them at all (WotC) or charge full price of the book. This makes it far more affordable overall.

Downside of ToV

Barbarian, Rogue, Monk
- None of these classes got changes that they could have used, especially monk. Barbarian didn't need much (though their unarmored defense did get an upgrade going to 10+CON, making it less MAD) Honestly the 2024 version of the Monk is a significant upgrade over both 2014 and ToV, it does start to shine with it's subclasses. I feel like Monk could have used the flexibility of being a DEX or STR class like Fighter and Ranger, though the issue is probably with Technique points in general than it is with the class as a whole...but /shrug. Rogue is still the Rogue, I'm not sure if there really is anything to change overall but it didn't get many changes.

ToV still has many of the same issues that plagued 5e in general, but KP has tried to take steps to either fix or mitigate them, specifically they are adding more movement into ToV, through talents, subclass features, optional rules...however they can add it. They want ToV to FEEL different at a base level from 5e.
 

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Oh, yeah ToV is far tighter than DM spells. The Theurge and Witch are being redone for ToV as well for Players Guide 2
That's good. I have the ToV books, I just haven't delved into them and was concerned to expand the ones on my shelf if they gave as much care to future products as they did to Deep Magic...
 


Here is how I look at it...

1) The base rules are 99% 5e (not 5.5e or 2024). So if you have a bunch of 5e books, they directly port over to ToV with less drama. If you want to 'ToV' your 5e classes to match the progression of ToV, Kobold Press has a free doc for that.

2) Real difference is in ToV is how they re-balanced the character classes, subclasses and abilities. They just did a better job overall than 5.5e. If you don't like some of their work, see point 1 and use 5e rules for those classes. No harm no foul.

3) The amount of DM\Player support in the ToV books is just over the top. ToV (and the Campaign Builder series) goes out of their way to show you how the system ticks so you can create your own home-brew and well thought out adventures. There is a lot of goodness there that I can't overstate.

4) The goal, as I see it, of the Players Guide 1 and Monster Vault 1 was to take everything Kobold Press could legally from 5e and make it their own. So its understandable why some players feel the way they do. Players Guide 2 coming out in January and now Monster Vault 2 (just out) is now going in their own direction away from a direct 5e port. Personally, I think adding new subclasses to the Players Guide would have helped the reputation of ToV and posts like this would exist less. Water under the Bridge now.

5) Many good optional rules as others have pointed out: Doom, Luck, etc. Lots of stuff to make ToV as crunchy as you want.

I don't regret moving to ToV one bit for my 5e games. I think it's the best 5e system to be a part of hands down.

On the minus side, I think the biggest thing that holds KP back is their inability to market their game. They get no buzz on the internet and that counts alot these days. I create sometimes on YouTube and anything I do for Draw Steel gets x10 the views of ToV.

I agree with others that Deep Magic spells is a mess for balance. Kobold Press learned their lesson on that because ToV is much better thought out. The Deep Magic subclasses are generally fine and I'm using some of them while I wait for Players Guide 2. I might drop Deep Magic once the 2nd Guide is out.

Disclosure: I do volunteer to help admin Kobold Press' Discord. I am not paid by them, etc.
 


I think it's a better revision of the 5e game than what WotC did--I especially think the way they handled moving things out of being "because you were born an elf" and such is better than in 5e 2024--and the Game Master's Guide is worlds better, especially if you're at all experienced running the game: It actually has ideas in it (gasp!) as well as guidelines for homebrewing things, which I don't remember seeing any of in the revised DMG. There are changes to the cosmology (The Labyrinth and such) that might also appeal, if just as something different from the Big Wheel, as well as to at least some of the monsters, and alignment is entirely thrown out (I've never asked for a PC's alignment in over 300 sessions of 5e, YMMV).

That said, it's actually seemed to me like a less dramatic departure from 2014 than the 2024 revision--though in the interests of fairness I've played some ToV and only read the 2024 revision.

So, it's not just "D&D, but not by WotC."
I've been wanting to pick up the TotV DMG for a while, but for ideas and worldbuilding stuff. Level Up is the 5e I base my design work on. 5.5's iterations on 5.0 go in opposite directions from my preferences in many ways.
 

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