Why does Undead=Evil

[Raven Crowking]

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[Raven Crowking]

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[Raven Crowking]

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[Raven Crowking]

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[Talon5]

Back tot he origin of the thread, please.

Most books I have read and people I have talked to believe that raising undead is an evil act, and I cant figure out why. Is it becouse of some belief that the body is sacred and must not be defiled? Or are they just simple minded people who say "If its nasty and evil looking it must be evil." The same logic some people use when they go "Look. He's dressed in black. He must be evil." I've never got why raising undead was such a big deal. Its no different the animating an object to attack someone. I think that most peole dont have an IQ large enough to understand the shades of gray between good and evil, their minds just work on very simple logic. What do you guys think.

Talon5 campaign-
LG cleric casts Animate Dead on a dead Goblin. The spell fails automatically and the next casting of any spell gets no result. Mr Cleric needs to seek some kind of atonement whether through a spell or some action (lot of prayer, sacrifice (no, not that kind) or.... whatever).

The spell has the discriptor of evil- why? Because good people do not bring the dead corpses of people up to do their bidding.

Good people do not rob banks to save orphanages, good people do not believe in the ends justifing the means, good people find other ways to get things done- ways that do not harm or hender the goodness of all things (yes, even that evil sob that we hate so much).

(Incidentally- I believe in some ends justifying some means, so being good- I am not, I know that and I can live with it.)

 

[Scion]

I strenuously disagree, but to delve into that would be to derail this thread entirely, so I'll bite my tongue.

I see it more as a personal choice than a game requirement. All of them would atone just because that is what they are Each game will be different on this score I imagine though (sometimes I make up a 'paladin' for each god, running the gambit from LG to CE, which obviously have differing ideals)

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "natural order of things" doesn't it?

Doesnt get more with the 'natural order of things' as being a plane that the prime is based on.

Undead Type: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.

Which seems to suggest again that negative energy is not natural, but supernatural.

'Supernatural forces' just means 'magical', which is merely another aspect of overall Nature. It is just a different nature than people are usually used to walking around in the forest (then again, in a d&d world even that isnt true, as there are some very odd things wandering around the forest.. in a world where 'supernatural' occurs as much as 'natural' I would expect a whole gradient system, but to keep things simple the d&d game ignores that, much in the same way it ignores levels).

This still does not make it evil or wrong, merely that it works in the same way as animated objects.

Animated dead are aware of language, in that they can be commanded.

Guess what, so are animated objects.

Also, just because the spell grants the corpse the ability to respond (and such, grants only access to knowledge that the character had before dieing, it does not check the soul, all it does is magically grant the 'semblance' of life. It does not remember, it cannot grow, it is basically like the read object power for psionics.) They made the spell such that it only allows the gaining of some information. Drawing more conclusions than that is definately stretching things greatly.

I think if you go back and actually read those posts, you'll see that what is said is that negative energy isn't evil per se, but it is linked to evil, and that most applications of negative energy in D&D 3.X are evil.

Not quite the same thing.

Still blatantly and horribly mistaken. Painfully so.

Either way you try to break it down, or reword various complaints, or paint it in a better light it is still just plain wrong.

Unless of course, once again, fire is evil. As it fits pretty much all of the criteria being used.

In the case of animate dead, the bodies, and (I argue) the soul imprints within said bodies are enslaved. This is evil.

I find your arguement very hollow however. The imprints are only active for a single spell, speak with dead, and even then they are obviously nothing like the actual soul.

Nothing evil there.

If anything the body is free, now it can move around again! and with awaken undead then it creates a new consciousness.

Once againg, nothing different here than a regular animated object.

However, while the general nature of negative energy is likely to make whatever is animated by it evil

Only because the game designers arbitrarily decided to make it so.

Add to this that most undead, when created, are enslaved by their (most often evil) creators,

The creators are likely evil because the spells are currently evil. So that isnt a very good point. The system currently forces a certain mindset, pointing to that and saying it proves the point does not work. Assuming the point to prove the point, not good.

and you'll soon see why most undead are evil. They've gone through a lot.

That must be why my chair is evil. Its been through a lot.

 

[Scion]

The spell description reads, in part: "If the creature’s alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive." (emphasis mine)

The SRD also states: "A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality."

If the corpse gains a saving throw as if it were alive, and if it were alive one aspect of that saving throw would be the ability to voluntarily forgo that saving throw, then the corpse can voluntarily forgo the saving throw.

It says that it makes the save as though it was alive since dead things usually dont get saves (like objects). However, since it has no intelligence it seems doubtful that it would be able to voluntarily forgo its save.

If the soul imprint is simply a repository of information, why do you see it as being allowed a saving throw?

Because the spell says so. If the spell didnt say so then it wouldnt have gotten one. Also, it has to say, 'as thought it were alive' because otherwise no one would have any idea what sort of save it would get (like if it said that the corpse gets a save without saying as though it was alive). No copy of the will, no will involved at all.

Why do you see the spell as being language dependent?

Because it works off of the languages that the creature knew in life. It only gets to use that information so you cant talk with it in a language it didnt know.

Easy. Still no will involved.

Yet animate dead clearly draws upon the knowledge resident in the body to allow it to understand the tasks it is given.

It clearly does not since the animated dead has no intelligence. It merely works in the same way that animated objects work (as they can also follow commands).

 

[Scion]

The spell has the discriptor of evil- why? Because good people do not bring the dead corpses of people up to do their bidding.

Just because something is not good does not make it evil.

 

[Talon5]

Only because the game designers arbitrarily decided to make it so.

Wow! Guess devils and demons arn't evil either- just misunderstood. I mean someone somewhere just arbitrarily made them that right?

The creators are likely evil because the spells are currently evil. So that isnt a very good point. The system currently forces a certain mindset, pointing to that and saying it proves the point does not work. Assuming the point to prove the point, not good.

A close friend of relitive dies, would you mind them walking about doing things, serving tea or wandering the streets looking for something moist to eat. I would not want that of my loved ones, but I guess we're from different sides of the street- Understand what evil is when I see it.

That must be why my chair is evil. Its been through a lot.

Guns, chair, knivies, desks, computers, shaving kits, dice, masking tape, swords, shoe laces, sharpened credit cards, all of it is not evil until it is used in an evil way. Raising the dead to use as an army of slaves (one or a billion of them) is evil, if you can't see that- emm, well, umm, ya, okay never mind I guess you can't.

Have a nice evening.

 

[Talon5]

Just because something is not good does not make it evil.

What is it then? A dark shade of gray? (good = white and evil = black)