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Why *Dont* you like Forgotten Realms?

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So here I am, poor teenager, and a box set with the most beautiful maps I have ever seen comes out. I am poor (two years earlier AFDC poor), but I wrangle up what money I can and buy it. I was awesome. A brief sketch of a large world with beautiful (if horribly conceived) maps. Nice pantheons, a mix of the old and new etc.

Oh wait, shortly thereafter they kill half the gods, "break" magic, kingdoms change without so much as a nod to the products I have already shelled out for. I am not talking over 20 years, I am talking about the first 2.

I agree that can be frustrating, I don't like to have my gaming materials obsoleted either. But one could have easily kept playing in the pre-Realm Shattering Event era if they chose to do so. I frequently do this, choose the era and time frame I want to play in in the Realms and use that timeline for my campaigns. I still reference my older sourcebooks even though my current FR campaign uses the 3.x sourcebooks for its primary timeline.


karolusb said:
I hate Elminster. Yep hate him, hate the Harpers et. al.. At the end of the day FR appealed (if only briefly) to adolescent me. Some guy got to publish the setting where his character was a godlike figure. It was juvenile wish fulfillment at it's best. Not for me of course (unless I was GMing), but for some other guy.

I know Elminster rubs some people the wrong way and nothing I post here will change that, so I am not going to try to change your mind on Elminster. ;)

I don't understand the Harper hate though. So there is a secret organization of folks that operate in the background. As a DM I control how involved the Harpers are apt to be in any given plot line. If I declare the Harpers uninterested in the current campaign predicament then they aren't involved. Who knows why, perhaps they know something greater and decide to let that line play out without their involvement. It wouldn't be the first time they've done so.
 

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I don't understand the Harper hate though. So there is a secret organization of folks that operate in the background. As a DM I control how involved the Harpers are apt to be in any given plot line. If I declare the Harpers uninterested in the current campaign predicament then they aren't involved. Who knows why, perhaps they know something greater and decide to let that line play out without their involvement. It wouldn't be the first time they've done so.

Okay, so there's this video game, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance. It's a fun game, surprisingly! Pretty much a D&D-themed Diablo for consoles. And you're tooling around the FR, killing the crap out of heaps of bad guys, and moving toward some major climax.

And then this hooded stranger in the inn who's been pestering me all game reveals he's a Harper. Fine. Then he says "Hey, do you want to join?" I say "no."

And... I can't go any further. The portal will not be opened for me to go kill even more Evil unless I learn the secret handshake and get on the mailing list. Apparently Evil will be allowed to run unchecked if the Harpers don't get their union dues. I say "no" again and again, but finally must cave and say "yes." Then I'm allowed to go fight Evil. They don't even give me anything to deal with the Evil, or send anyone to help me. They just wanted me in the organization so when I go topple the threat for them, they can claim credit.

It is completely unfair of me to allow a video game depiction to train me emotionally, but if I were in an FR game and someone announced themselves to be a Harper, I'd probably try to poison him.

(Also, tip of the hat to Neverwinter Nights for portraying paladins as so sufficiently faithless that they can't even make the basic leap of faith that "even if we suffer in this life, it serves a purpose, and we will be reunited in glory in the next." Aribeth, you are dumb as a sack of dead gibberlings.)
 

Okay, so there's this video game, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance. It's a fun game, surprisingly! Pretty much a D&D-themed Diablo for consoles. And you're tooling around the FR, killing the crap out of heaps of bad guys, and moving toward some major climax.

And then this hooded stranger in the inn who's been pestering me all game reveals he's a Harper. Fine. Then he says "Hey, do you want to join?" I say "no."

It is completely unfair of me to allow a video game depiction to train me emotionally, but if I were in an FR game and someone announced themselves to be a Harper, I'd probably try to poison him.

(Also, tip of the hat to Neverwinter Nights for portraying paladins as so sufficiently faithless that they can't even make the basic leap of faith that "even if we suffer in this life, it serves a purpose, and we will be reunited in glory in the next." Aribeth, you are dumb as a sack of dead gibberlings.)

Well at least you admit it is unfair to allow what happened in a video game (notoriously known for railroading style of play) to so greatly impact your views on a campaign world.
 

Well at least you admit it is unfair to allow what happened in a video game (notoriously known for railroading style of play) to so greatly impact your views on a campaign world.

I think that the point is that the video game well reflects the style encouraged by the setting. Keep in mind that FR had a reputation for being railroady long before Baldur's Gate because of FR PnP modules, not because of video games. Honestly, Baldur's Gate video games are typically less railroads than the modules FR was initially defined by in gamer's minds.
 

Well at least you admit it is unfair to allow what happened in a video game (notoriously known for railroading style of play) to so greatly impact your views on a campaign world.

Oh, the video games don't impact my views on a campaign world. As I said a ways upthread, I could never hate the Realms, as they were the spark needed to get me going on "I could build my own! And it could be based on everything I like!" The Harpers are just a portion of the world. And nuts to them.

Well, to be a little less tongue-in-cheek, the thing that bothers me a bit about the Harpers is that I haven't really seen a book encourage a way to make them "belong" to your play group. If they go corrupt, how do you take out the leadership? If you want to join them, how do you rise to lead them? They seem a little too fixed in one specific campaign role for my taste, at least as mortal organizations go, as though they're not meant to be used in roles where the PCs take control of the organization's destiny.

And also I very much like the archetype of the scarred, stoic warrior who triumphs over his enemies in exceptionally metal fashion, and having any ties with a bunch of people called "Harpers" clashes just a touch. However, that's really just a symptom of a larger reason why the FR is something I used to inspire myself to build my own world, and not something I use: the FR focuses on things like arcane magic and bardic tradition fairly heavily, and straight-up fightery goodness rather lightly. I prefer to emphasize the martial tradition much more.
 

Ooh, one more nit I want to pick: Kara-Tur, and more specifically, Wa and Kozakura.

They've got two islands that roughly simulate two different periods of Japanese history. They've named one of them "Child of the Cherry Blossoms" (it's so japany!). They named the other one "Harmony" (wa), but it's actually an official abbreviation for the country. Wa is based on the Warring States period (15th-17th Centuries), but both islands feature the Yakuza, which is like having the Godfather as a plot element in the American Revolution. Plus, the place names are largely real place names with one syllable changed, like "Tsukishima." And at one point in their history, Korea (I mean Koryo)* tries to invade Japan (err, Kozakura), but the fleet is wiped out by a tsunami. Only that was the mongols, and it was a typhoon, and... jeez, I just wished they'd made a fresh new history instead of screwing up real history.

It works for people who are just into katanas and ninjas and stuff, but for me, it's like playing a game where King Sconesandtea rules over Engleband, and they fight off the Italien armada while enduring a bombing raid from the Jerman Fluffwaffle.**

*Koryo is on the Choson peninsula, which is just not even trying.
**I would actually play such a game.
 

Sure there is.

You do realize that when you say that, you need to back it up with something, right?

You seem to think that providing details is the same thing as giving something depth or quality. You can provide alot of details but it doesn't add depth or sophistication of conception to the original ideas.

That's true, but here's the thing - if you never provide any details at all, then you'll never be able to add depth or sophistication at all. The original idea will just stay the original idea, forever unexplored.

They still remain one diminsional, shallow, and unimaginative. They are just a near random collection of deities from the original Deities and Demigods, who sometimes have been given different names.

Really? Please provide me with the original Deities and Demigods entries for Mystra, Lathander, Cyric, Ao, Mask, and others.

I don't even understand why you would defend them given there well known origin.

Because - even if I accepted your take on their origin, which I don't - I don't think something's defined by how it originally appears, but why how it subsequently grows and changes over time. Which is something the Greyhawk deities have yet to do.

Faiths and Avatars deserves some praise for recognizing that players and DM's were better served by more details about the church, worship and clerics of a deity than they were stat-blocks (a fault commonly noted in the earlier D&D books from the beginning), but that didn't make the deities themselves or the overall pantheon more interesting.

It outlined the natures of who the deities were, what their histories were, what their goals were...and knowing more about how their churches were organized did, by extension, make them more interesting.

In a word, family. One of the intrinsic parts of any decently well realized pagan pantheon is that it's going to have a meaty soap opera going on of who has married who, and who has slept with who, and who is related to who and so forth. A good pagan pantheon mimics the structure and conflicts of a small tribe of people, or sometimes several small rival tribes. Evolved polytheistic religions pick up these ideas of the deities as incarnations of abstract philosophical concepts and lay that over the top, but the core is always this tribal soap opera instantly recognizable to anyone who has lived in a fairly small community. There are other things, but that's a good of a start as any.

So you think the Greyhawk gods were better developed because Heironeous and Hextor are brothers, is that it?

You do an okay job outlining the terms of things you think are interesting, but thus far you've failed to describe how those things appear among the Greyhawk pantheons. Quite simply, at this point it's more about citing references for examples of the qualities you're assigning them than it is defining those qualities.

Where do you think Ralishaz really came into his own, as a character? Which novel or sourcebook really outlined the multiple facets of Xerbo? Beyond his portfolio, who is Phyton, really?

I'm not saying ALL of the Greyhawk deities are barren of depth of character - the same way not all of the FR gods of paragons of fully-realized characters either - but beyond the handful of exceptions like Vecna or Iuz, most of the Greyhawk deities have simply gotten the same three paragraphs of information, endlessly rephrased throughout different sourcebooks and articles (save for isolated instances of better writing, like the Core Beliefs series in Dragon).
 

I don't "hate" the Realms. Much of the material is, from a writing and design point of view, really quite good quality. Award-winning, even. If its your cup of tea, I would never even suggest to a DM "don't use it". However I have never had any interest whatsoever in using it as MY campaign world. Large numbers of people have already stated all of my reasons, but just to add my voice:

*Ridiculously overpowered high fantasy

*Large numbers of untouchable break-every-rule NPCs meddling everywhere

*A world that literally contains almost every type of geographic and political region imaginable, all tossed together haphazardly like a nightmare salad

*So much setting material background that details every corner of the world, that you couldn't add anything original without fear of later finding out another product has already filled it with some random subsetting

*A history that is so overly detailed that there are no mysteries left for DMs to customize to tease players with - they can just look it up

*Gods that meddle with the world at a drop of the hat

*A zillion novels that magnify all of the above problems like a giant burning magnifying glass from the heavens.

... and there are many more good points that people have made that I would agree with.

All of the above reasons why I dislike the Realms as a campaign setting is what Greyhawk is not, and are exactly the reasons why I like Greyhawk as a campaign setting so much.

Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-neutral Greyhawk goodness... maps, magic, mysteries, mechanics, and more. Lots of stuff you could even use in a Realms campaign!
 

I think that the point is that the video game well reflects the style encouraged by the setting.

I'm just not seeing it. I've run numerous campaigns in the Forgotten Realms and never felt railroaded or constrained in shaping the campaign as a DM. Video games tend to be "railroady" by their very nature the programmer can only account for so many options and has to push people into those options so I am skeptical of a claim that because a video game is "railroady" that it a reflection of a style encouraged by the Realms.

Celebrim said:
Keep in mind that FR had a reputation for being railroady long before Baldur's Gate because of FR PnP modules, not because of video games. Honestly, Baldur's Gate video games are typically less railroads than the modules FR was initially defined by in gamer's minds.

I can understand modules being called "railroady", but how does an entire setting get classified as "railroady"? A campaign setting is just a framework for a DM to work with and tweak as needed to fit his or her needs.

I've read several FR modules, but never run one, so maybe that's why I don't get a feeling that the FR campaign world is forcing me to railroad my players as a DM. I've always either dropped other modules into the world or written my own stuff for campaigns I have based in the Realms.
 

Oh, the video games don't impact my views on a campaign world. As I said a ways upthread, I could never hate the Realms, as they were the spark needed to get me going on "I could build my own! And it could be based on everything I like!" The Harpers are just a portion of the world. And nuts to them.

Ah! I do recall your earlier post. I hadn't linked the initial post and the one I responded to regarding Harpers and Baldur's gate to the same poster.

Barastrondo said:
Well, to be a little less tongue-in-cheek, the thing that bothers me a bit about the Harpers is that I haven't really seen a book encourage a way to make them "belong" to your play group. If they go corrupt, how do you take out the leadership? If you want to join them, how do you rise to lead them? They seem a little too fixed in one specific campaign role for my taste, at least as mortal organizations go, as though they're not meant to be used in roles where the PCs take control of the organization's destiny.

To me these are details a DM would fill in for their campaign. As a DM I can define the Harper leadership, the paths to leadership or which leadership might need taken out if the Harpers were to head down a more nefarious path. Or perhaps a story that doesn't need the entire Harpers organization overthrown, but a smaller plot only affecting a particular region where the Harpers and leadership in that area need overthrown.


Barastrondo said:
And also I very much like the archetype of the scarred, stoic warrior who triumphs over his enemies in exceptionally metal fashion, and having any ties with a bunch of people called "Harpers" clashes just a touch. However, that's really just a symptom of a larger reason why the FR is something I used to inspire myself to build my own world, and not something I use: the FR focuses on things like arcane magic and bardic tradition fairly heavily, and straight-up fightery goodness rather lightly. I prefer to emphasize the martial tradition much more.

I sort of have a player that fits the scarred, stoic warrior type in a campaign I am running now. He has no Harper ties though.

I think your last point is one I can most agree with though. If the FR focus of arcane magic and bardic tradition figure too heavily I can certainly see why you would borrow bits and pieces as you need or head off and create your own world that more closely matches what you feel a campaign world should be like.

I can certainly understand that FR is not for everyone. There are certainly other campaign settings that I would rather not DM or play in. And generally it isn't because there is something *wrong* with the setting it just doesn't match my tastes in a campaign setting.
 

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