Why *Dont* you like Forgotten Realms?

[Nymrohd]

Conversely, I see Anthony getting criticized a lot for his work (particularly the sexuality between older men and prepubescent girls that pops up in more than one book). More over at RPGnet than here, mind, but I can certainly say that I've seen people discuss Anthony's work with even more disapproval than Greenwood's.

The problem with Greenwood's novels is not the sex between old guys and hot young women. The problem with the novels is that for some reason, while Greenwood is excellent when he is writing RPG books he is just poor at writing novels. Bad plot, bad characters, too much forced awesome trying to make up for the former.

 

[Celebrim]

Bad plot, bad characters, too much forced awesome trying to make up for the former.

See, I would argue that that list of flaws applies equally to his RPG work.

 

[WizarDru]

Conversely, I see Anthony getting criticized a lot for his work (particularly the sexuality between older men and prepubescent girls that pops up in more than one book). More over at RPGnet than here, mind, but I can certainly say that I've seen people discuss Anthony's work with even more disapproval than Greenwood's.

I have to second this. I have enjoyed some of Anthony's books, but there has long been controversies surrounding his material. Claims of misogyny and being a pedophile make Anthony a particularly bad choice to show an author who writes detailed sexual material in his work and doesn't get criticized...because he very much does and has for a long, long time.

Here's a thread from RPG.net in 2005, for example. His first book "A Spell for Chameleon", features a female character who basically changes from incredibly sexy and stupid to intelligent and ugly based on her menstrual cycle. Similar criticisms have followed Anthony for decades, especially from more recent readers, like this one. His one book, Firefly, apparently features a 10-page encounter between a 5 year-old and an adult and was the tipping point for many fans to stop reading him, as [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Firefly-Piers-Anthony/dp/0380759500"]some of the reviews at Amazon will attest[/ame], dating back to 1997.

I can't speak to Greenwood, either way...but I've heard of criticisms of Piers Anthony for as long as I've known of him.

 

[Primal]

I am happy that you are a sexually active adult in real life, but let us be clear. The issue at hand is not that characters have sex or even that sex is explicit or implicit in the setting/campaign. The matter is the nature of the sexual dimension. It is not so much believable as it is trashy eroticism. The characters may be "real," but it does not come across as real. It comes across as a creepy brand of sexual wish-fulfillment that you would expect out of a porno or the mind of a horny, hormone-driven teenager. I do not think there is anything particularly believable about Elminster in a hot tub filled with 'hawt' drow women or some of the other tales.

And which FR novel or short story has had such "trashy" scenes? And I may be wrong here, but I can't recall Elminster hanging out in a hot tub with drow women. Please clarify what you mean by "trashy" and what you find so offensive about sexuality in FR novels; is it the idea of older men having sex with younger females? Characters having multiple sexual partners? Or because FR features people with different sexual orientations? Or people experimenting with whips and whatnot?

Look, I'm fine with people having sex; it's what people do and have always done (the only thing I don't tolerate is when children or minors are represented as sexual objects). And I think it's completely believable that members of either sex could seek older partners; after all, my own mom is dating a man several years younger than myself. There might also be other motives that motive (especially younger female wizards and sorceresses) to seek Elminster's company; favors, power, intrigue, or simply just because of his charisma. It does not have to have anything to do with real affection.

Yes, other fantasy authors have sexual wish-fulfillment fantasies in their works, and that is just as problematic when it happens. I am not sure what pointing to these other sources is meant to accomplish apart from showing how prevalent the problem is in fantasy. But pointing to the prevalence of a problem does not lessen the problem.

Let me say it again: please, PLEASE do not make such assumptions; you don't know what kind of sexual fantasies author X or Y might or might not have, and whether those are reflected in his/her works or not. Could you name a few examples? And, again, please take a look at some contemporary comicbook titles and compare them to how sex in usually presented in fantasy fiction. How does it matter? Well, without some sort of frame of reference, your argument feels kind of out of context -- it's just an opinion without anything to back it up. And if we're talking about sex in our society and popular culture... well, I don't think it's *that* prominent or problematic in fantasy fiction, right?

 

[Nymrohd]

See, I would argue that that list of flaws applies equally to his RPG work.

Bad plot and bad characters? Yeah I am afraid I'd agree. When introduced in the grey box most of the NPCs felt great but the character development ever since has been . . . lacking. The difference is that the writing itself is better in the books. I mean Serpent Kingdoms in 3.5 as one of the more recent FR works of Greenwood was very well written (though it suffered badly from one of the two main problems of 3E FR, mainly demystifying all the FR mysteries).

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Ed Greenwood made a female character who magicked away her pregnancies so she would always look extra sexy for her constant orgies.

Like, the guy self identifies as a dirty old man. He calls himself this all the damn time.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to defend here.

 

[Aldarc]

And which FR novel or short story has had such "trashy" scenes? And I may be wrong here, but I can't recall Elminster hanging out in a hot tub with drow women. Please clarify what you mean by "trashy" and what you find so offensive about sexuality in FR novels; is it the idea of older men having sex with younger females? Characters having multiple sexual partners? Or because FR features people with different sexual orientations? Or people experimenting with whips and whatnot?

Look, I'm fine with people having sex; it's what people do and have always done (the only thing I don't tolerate is when children or minors are represented as sexual objects). And I think it's completely believable that members of either sex could seek older partners; after all, my own mom is dating a man several years younger than myself. There might also be other motives that motive (especially younger female wizards and sorceresses) to seek Elminster's company; favors, power, intrigue, or simply just because of his charisma. It does not have to have anything to do with real affection.

I was clarifying the arguments of detractors as people arguing against them seemed to be largely missing their point. Some examples of where this can be found in Greenwood were listed in previous threads of this discussion, including the book that had the drow hawt tub. Again, the problem is not so much the what is conveyed but the how it is conveyed. Explicit or implicit sex is not the problem. It is the nature of the sex that comes across as the immature perversions of a horny teenager or a porno. It is not sex presented maturely. It is pointless titillation for the sake of titillation.

Let me say it again: please, PLEASE do not make such assumptions; you don't know what kind of sexual fantasies author X or Y might or might not have, and whether those are reflected in his/her works or not. Could you name a few examples? And, again, please take a look at some contemporary comicbook titles and compare them to how sex in usually presented in fantasy fiction. How does it matter? Well, without some sort of frame of reference, your argument feels kind of out of context -- it's just an opinion without anything to back it up. And if we're talking about sex in our society and popular culture... well, I don't think it's *that* prominent or problematic in fantasy fiction, right?

This was not expanded since this issue was largely beside the point of Ed Greenwood. As I said, pointing to how this manifests in other fantasy works does not somehow absolve Ed Greenwood of his guilt in this phenomenon. But do you not think that this is somewhat off-topic? I would love to talk about this issue in further detail. But for an example of what I am talking about: it is really not hard to read the sexual subtext found in the frequency in which human males hook up with female elves, who exemplify idealized feminine attributes. This already nails down a number of fantasy books.

 

[Primal]

Ed Greenwood made a female character who magicked away her pregnancies so she would always look extra sexy for her constant orgies.

Like, the guy self identifies as a dirty old man. He calls himself this all the damn time.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to defend here.

When/where has he said so?

And is there something perverted in "magicking away" your pregnancies... we have pills for that. If we had magic in RL, I'm fairly sure that such spells would be surprisingly popular -- at least among teenagers. AFAIK it tells nothing of Ed's own personality. And a lot of nobles in fiction and RPG campaigns tend to have orgies... a lot of orgies.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

When/where has he said so?

And is there something perverted in "magicking away" your pregnancies... we have pills for that. If we had magic in RL, I'm fairly sure that such spells would be surprisingly popular -- at least among teenagers. AFAIK it tells nothing of Ed's own personality. And a lot of nobles in fiction and RPG campaigns tend to have orgies... a lot of orgies.

Seriously?

You're going to argue that Ed Greenwood isn't a dirty old man?

Really? That's the fight you're choosing? Ed "the party comes across an orgy and needs to find the beautiful queen in there" Greenwood? Ed "never describes a female character, just calls them beautiful" Greenwood? Ed "If I had my way the Forgotten Realms books would read more like a letter to Penthouse" Greenwood?

You're going to fight that he's not perverse?

 

[Diamond Cross]

No, but you are full of for commenting on him personally and trying to persecute him just for his novels.