Why *Dont* you like Forgotten Realms?

[Dausuul]

This thread sure took a turn for the weird. It reminds me of the Forgotten Realms novels boards on the official forums, before the great drama that had them shut down and all novel discussion banned.

At this point I'm dying of curiosity to hear what this great drama was, but worried that asking will precipitate the same here... can you give us a hint?

 

[Aegeri]

At this point I'm dying of curiosity to hear what this great drama was, but worried that asking will precipitate the same here... can you give us a hint?

It got shut down due to immensely vicious and repeated attacks on certain authors, such as Elaine Cunningham and the arguments back and forth. Inevitably Wizards novel department decided this state of affairs was terrible for business and had the forum shut down. You couldn't even talk about novels on the forum without having your thread deleted and you potentially banned.

I don't like most Realms novels and Greenwood in particular is not my favourite fantasy author. As an example, Spellfire is arguably one of the worst books I've ever read, especially when they have sex right outside a dracolich's lair of all damn things. But I don't hold anything personal against the guy and the attacks on him here just remind me of the sort of shenanigans from the old FR novels forum.

I'm not one to get high and mighty about being snippy, having a sarcastic tone and such - but at least the people I do that to are here to defend themselves (because I'm talking to them). Greenwood isn't here to defend himself, so it always makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable when I see various accusations and attacks like he's a "Dirty old man" an such. Minding, it's not like the authors being there to defend themselves made things any better actually.

 

[Aldarc]

Quite possibly, but it was very wrong to start turning this into a witchunt against the author and calling him creepy.

But hey, who cares. It's fun to demonize people you can't know in order to get people to stop discussing a product because they don't like the product.

You're right. We should turn our endeavors to the literary criticism of his written works. And when literary criticism potentially reveals a piss poor writing style coupled with sexist undertones, can we attribute this to anything but the author? But how could this be? Certainly we need to examine the author himself, if we are to understand the inspiration of his works. So when we look at what he has said outside of his novels, what he has written on electronic documents, or what has transpired in his campaigns, or what other eye-witnesses have said about him, would we be out of line for noting those peculiarities?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

My concept of Alustriel as de facto ruler of Silverymoon has always been glossed over by TSR (and now WotC) for Code of Ethics/Code of Conduct reasons, because I see her as the Realms equivalent of ‘the Queen of Courtly Love,’ presiding over a Court that amuses itself (along with delighting in wit, new songs, new inventions or clever craftsmanship, and fashions) with dalliances, courtship, and lovemaking. Er, lots of lovemaking. :}

In the same way that real-world kings in some places and times enjoyed droit de signeur [French for: “As the King, I have the right to sleep with anyone” :}], Alustriel takes many lovers for short periods of time, and is one of those rare kind, understanding, warm people who has the knack of staying close, affectionate friends with former lovers, even in the presence of other ex-flames. In fact, it’s quite likely that any meeting of courtiers will contain a majority of folk who have visited the royal bed or baths at one time or another -- and most of them remain fiercely loyal to Alustriel and to her dream of Silverymoon. (In fact, some cynics, such as Torm of the Knights of Myth Drannor, believe she deliberately seduces political foes to transform them into personal friends.) The fact demonstrably remains that to attack Alustriel in Silverymoon will be to evoke immediate defense of her person by dozens of champions who will lay down their lives to protect hers, even knowing she’s the “Anointed of the Goddess” and may not really need their protection.

For obvious moral reasons, published Realmslore glides over all this ‘free love’ stuff (gakk! orgies! Nonononono!) without saying much (though if you read the words of Silverymmon-related Realmslore I’ve written, nothing contradicts it). If you’re portraying Alustriel correctly in play, she loves to laugh (except when to do so would be cruel to others), gives hugs, caresses, and kisses freely, has no personal dignity (nude? Me? Yes, so? Yes, I heard him comment on the shape and taste of my breasts -- that’s why I was thanking him) but a LOT of personal grace and charm, and never forgets details about people (so if meeting a knight she bedded one night eight years ago, she’ll recall the name of his ailing mother and her ailment, the name of his new bride, and any ‘touchy triggers’ any of them might have). Most folk who meet her can’t remain jealous of her or angry at her for long.

The original Mystra seemed to encourage Alustriel to have children (why? Hoho! SO many mysteries, waved before you!), because she conceived every nine months and a day or two, giving Faerun a succession of healthy males in a series of easy births (and being little constricted or uncomfortable while pregnant, because rather than acquiring a ballooning belly, the High Lady always put on weight all over, and retained her poise, balance, and activities). Yes, she’s given birth to females, and no, I’m not going to say ANYTHING more about that for future schemes reasons. :} The new Mystra may have other ideas, because (as far as Elminster knows -- and he doesn’t hesitate to ask her, straight out) Alustriel isn’t pregnant right now, and shows no signs of becoming so.

For details of her current consort, see the quartet of Realmslore columns appearing on the WotC website right now.

“Aerasume” is a surname, and all of the tall, strapping lads who bear it share the same father, who remains Alustriel’s lover on nights when she needs comforting, but these days is often away from Silverymoon on explorative expeditions into the wilderlands. As I said: with very few exceptions, Alustriel remains on good terms with her former lovers, and manages somehow to keep them comfortable with each other (I guess it’s like being members of a club one very much enjoys being part of). So they all get along well together. At long-ago GenCons I often ran Realms play sessions in which PCs were sent with an urgent message to Alustriel [a stranger to them by all but reputation] through a secret portal that admitted them to the Palace but removed all metal -- weapons and, er, BELT BUCKLES -- and all enchanted materials [items and garments vanished, spells operating on the bodies of the PCs just melted away] in doing so. Stumbling over their own falling clothing but under imperative, overriding orders to get to Alustriel right away (and bearing a pass that would let them do so), the racing PCs were directed to a certain chamber, and burst into it to discover that it was taken up by a vast, shallow bath filled with warm rosewater and naked people making love. SOMEwhere in all of that sliding flesh was Alustriel. Their mission: find her.

I loved watching players’ faces, right at that moment.

No guys seriously he's not perverted at all!

 

[Dausuul]

You're right. We should turn our endeavors to the literary criticism of his written works. And when literary criticism potentially reveals a piss poor writing style coupled with sexist undertones, can we attribute this to anything but the author? But how could this be? Certainly we need to examine the author himself, if we are to understand the inspiration of his works. So when we look at what he has said outside of his novels, what he has written on electronic documents, or what has transpired in his campaigns, or what other eye-witnesses have said about him, would we be out of line for noting those peculiarities?

I would say that those subjects are fair game to the extent that they relate to the work in question, but I agree with Diamond Cross that the author himself is not fair game. It's a fine line and I've already stepped over it a few times. Part of the reason I've been mostly quiet the last few pages is not wanting to risk stepping over it again.

I also think Aegeri has a point and this discussion is going nowhere good, and it's pretty tangential anyway, so I'm officially exiting the debate about sex in the Realms. This whole thread was walking on thin ice to begin with, and I think it's pretty much played out now.

Anybody have any new criticisms of the Forgotten Realms that haven't already been argued to death?

 

[Diamond Cross]

You're right. We should turn our endeavors to the literary criticism of his written works. And when literary criticism potentially reveals a piss poor writing style coupled with sexist undertones, can we attribute this to anything but the author? But how could this be? Certainly we need to examine the author himself, if we are to understand the inspiration of his works. So when we look at what he has said outside of his novels, what he has written on electronic documents, or what has transpired in his campaigns, or what other eye-witnesses have said about him, would we be out of line for noting those peculiarities?

Yes, it is completely out of line.

Kind of like this:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=+1]A Rapist's View of the World: Joss Whedon and Firefly[/SIZE][/FONT]
This is a really long rant about Joss Whedon's Firefly. Why? Because I'm angry and I think it is really important that feminists don't leave popular culture out of the equation. Especially considering that popular culture is increasingly being influenced by pornography.

***

I have become increasingly interested in examining Joss Whedon’s work from a feminist perspective since I had a conversation with another lesbian feminist sister at the International Feminist Summit about whether Joss was a feminist. I am really quite shocked by how readily Joss is accepted as a feminist, and that his works are widely considered to be feminist. I decided to start re-watching Buffy: The Vampire Slayer and also to watch Firefly and the movie Serenity.

I have to say that now that I have subjected myself to the horror that is Firefly, I really am beyond worried about how much men hate us, given that this was written by a man who calls himself a feminist.

I find much of Joss Whedon’s work to be heavily influenced by pornography, and pornographic humour. While I would argue that there are some aspects of Buffy: The Vampire Slayer that are feminist and progressive, there is much that isn’t and I find it highly problematic that there are many very woman-hating messages contained within a show that purports itself as feminism. But Firefly takes misogyny to a new level of terrifying. I am really, really worried that women can call the man who made this show a feminist.

For myself, I’m not sure that I will recover from the shock of watching the malicious way in which Joss stripped his female characters of their integrity, the pleasure he seemed to take from showing potentially powerful women bashed, the way he gleefully demonized female power and selfhood and smashed women into little bits, male fists in women’s faces, male voices drowning out our words.

There is so much hatred towards women contained within the scripts and action of the series that I doubt very much that this post will even begin to cover it. I am going to try to focus on the episodes that were written by Joss Whedon but I will also refer to the series as a whole. As Joss Whedon was responsible for the concept development and was a producer, ultimately I hold him accountable for the depiction of women in the entire season. Only one episode was written by a woman. It was no better or worse in its depiction of women than the ones written by men.

The pilot episode, Serenity, was written and directed by Joss Whedon. The basic plot of the series is Malcolm Reynolds and his second in command Zoe, have made a new life for themselves after fighting a war against the Alliance, which they lost. They bought a Firefly, an old space ship, and Mal calls it Serenity, after the last battle they fought for the Independence. The pilot of the ship, Wash, is Zoe’s husband. Kaylee is the ship’s mechanic and Jayne, the final member of the crew, is the brainless brawn. This bunch of criminals go around stealing things and generally doing lots of violence.

They also take on board passengers. There is Inara, a Companion (Joss Whedon’s euphemism for women in prostitution). She rents one of the ship’s shuttles. Simon, a doctor and his sister River. And a Shepherd (which means preacher), a black male character.

_allecto_: A Rapist's View of the World: Joss Whedon and Firefly


Because all it is is nothing more than a hit piece to assassinate any writer's character character, no more than idiots gossiping around a water cooler.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Yes, it is completely out of line.

Kind of like this: . . .

No, it is nothing like that.

 

[Holy Bovine]

Well if I was a moderator here I would simply give some informal warnings about how these idiots are making personal attacks against someone they don't even know.

Kinda like you just did?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

No, it is nothing like that.

Yeah, those two are pretty much hilariously opposite of each other. "Let's judge someone based on their works and how they act towards others in public" versus "No but see someone crazy hated this guy they're the same!"

 

[Diamond Cross]

No, it is nothing like that.

It is no different than that.

Kinda like you just did?

Don't turn this around on me you people are the ones making personal attacks against an author.